How Do You Define an Elite Coach?

[bullets13]

6 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Like I’ve said before, nothing’s in a straight line.  But if you think that athletes just started showing up at Carthage when Surratt did and Surratt was just lucky to have shown at that same time then, well, we’ll just have agree to disagree!  

Surratt went to a school with good athletes already in place and got the most out of them. Won a couple of championships, got the backing of the community, got great facilities, and now many of the best players from all the surrounding communities find ways to play there. He's as elite as it gets, but now that the talent is funneling in and the community has the reputation as title town, another solid coach could step in there and keep winning. On the flipside, Surratt is not going to a place with no talent and no support and have them winning championships quickly without players moving in and better facilities.  and he's not moving down to the valley and taking over a team and winning state championships in 7 or 70 years. He could dominate that area, but he's still going to lose with his teams when they face dallas and houston late in the playoffs. 

[BBtater984]

1 hour ago, Reagan said:

Only in high school football.  BTW, first, Belichick has only been there 1 year.  We need to give him a chance.  Second, Holtz and Saban couldn’t make the move to different leagues.  So…

Why is it only in high school? Is that because of recruiting? NIL? Etc....???

*If you are elite at the highest level... You should be elite at lower levels, or it doesn't work that way?

[Reagan]

34 minutes ago, BBtater984 said:

Why is it only in high school? Is that because of recruiting? NIL? Etc....???

*If you are elite at the highest level... You should be elite at lower levels, or it doesn't work that way?

Elite is my definition.  You have to have at least 2 State Titles in high school football to qualify.  Anyone can have their own definition if they want.  

[AggiesAreWe]

6 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Elite is my definition.  You have to have at least 2 State Titles in high school football to qualify.  Anyone can have their own definition if they want.  

Question. In your opinion, can an "elite" coach no longer be an "elite" coach? Or is he/she always an "elite" coach?

Example. A coach wins two state championships in his first 5 years of coaching after taking over for a coach who had won 6 titles in 15 seasons. Previous coach built a top notch program. Then the next 25 years the coach doesn't win a state championship. In fact, he has a few losing seasons.

Is he still "elite" because of those two state titles from 25 years ago?

[WOSdrummer99]

1 hour ago, 12th man Vidor said:

Elite coaching can be a coach that takes average kids at an average program and has them buy in and over achieves with them. This will require the coach to adjust his coaching styles almost every year based on the talent that he has from yr to yr.

BC HC Josh Smally fits this. But I dont consider him in the top 1% yet. @Reagan's 3% was generous. Doesn't mean he's not a great coach. Just not Elite. Still some years left to make the jump. If they continue the recent success it will snowball into more and more. Look for them to compete with WOS very well next season

[Reagan]

8 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Question. In your opinion, can an "elite" coach no longer be an "elite" coach? Or is he/she always an "elite" coach?

Example. A coach wins two state championships in his first 5 years of coaching after taking over for a coach who had won 6 titles in 15 seasons. Previous coach built a top notch program. Then the next 25 years the coach doesn't win a state championship. In fact, he has a few losing seasons.

Is he still "elite" because of those two state titles from 25 years ago?

Yes, 2 State Titles puts you in the elite club no matter what happens down the road.  Just think about all the coaches that can't even play in one much less win one.  

BTW, this is for football only.  So, as of now there won't be a "she" involved.

[AggiesAreWe]

4 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Yes, 2 State Titles puts you in the elite club no matter what happens down the road.  Just think about all the coaches that can't even play in one much less win one.  

BTW, this is for football only.  So, as of now there won't be a "she" involved.

What would be the reason for the decline from 25 years ago if he is an "elite" coach? Did he lose his "elite" coaching abilities? 

[bullets13]

30 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

BC HC Josh Smally fits this. But I dont consider him in the top 1% yet. @Reagan's 3% was generous. Doesn't mean he's not a great coach. Just not Elite. Still some years left to make the jump. If they continue the recent success it will snowball into more and more. Look for them to compete with WOS very well next season

BC has generally been a bad football team for the better part of 3 decades, but have had groups of kids who've given them a couple of years of good teams here and there. Without a doubt they've had a special group of kids the last couple of years and it's shown. There was a local coach in another sport who had a special player and took a traditionally bad program to unprecedented success for a couple of years, and he was anointed as one of the area's elites (often by himself, but by others as well) after two good seasons. In the five years since that player graduated the program has slid back first into mediocrity and then into the cellar. That coach isn't mentioned with the elites anymore. What's yet to be seen is whether Smalley is going to maintain success once these players all graduate, or if BC will fall from the peak back into another valley when this group of kids is all gone. I think he's a good coach. If he can sustain success at BC (or leaves for another school and finds more success), i'll have no issue calling him an elite coach. If they're 5-5 or 3-7 in two years then i'll assume the recent success had a lot more to do with the players than the coaching. In reality I'm sure it had a lot to do with both. Regardless, he's not winning a state title with BC, and that doesn't exclude him from becoming elite there if he can sustain success.

[BBfan061]

13 hours ago, Reagan said:

True!  I believe 1,000% that within 7 years Surratt could win a State Title.  What in his head coaching history would make you think  he couldn't?  I guess you also believe that "athletes" only started showing up at Carthage when Surratt showed up?!  From 1924 to 2007 (when Surratt showed up) and through 20 head coaches no "athletes" ever showed up because there were no State Titles, according to your thoughts.  I understand you have to believe this because then you would have to believe that there are special coaches than can do this.  And as you said there's no coaches that good.  At any one time there are only about 3-5% of the coaches that can accomplish this.  And that percentage may be generous.  

Let me put one to you.  Since you, and others, feel there are no differences in coaches that it all depends who gets the "athletes" and who doesn't, I submit this for you viewing pleasure:  Back in 2007 when Surratt was hired, let's instead slip this name into that slot:  How about the former Nederland coach Bobby August.  According to you, and others, that since the "athletes" started showing up in 2007 that Carthage's outcome would look the same today if August was the coach.  Remember -- ya'll think it doesn't matter who the coach is because all that matters is if you are lucky enough to have the "athletes"!  

I believe Warren has more students than Newton.  What I'm not sure is, are there always transfers at Newton like you talk about?  Or has it just been bad coaching at Warren?!

Surratt winning a state title at Warren over the next 7 years? No offense to Warren… but no it’s not happening 

[Reagan]

58 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

What would be the reason for the decline from 25 years ago if he is an "elite" coach? Did he lose his "elite" coaching abilities? 

No, there's always variables that come into play.  Just like when 89falcon explained that different variable could have happened as to why Danaher never won a State Title.  

PS -- just like I explained before about why Joe Gibbs wasn't as successful the second time around with the Redskins -- variables!  And this actually came from him.  

[Reagan]

2 minutes ago, BBfan061 said:

Surratt winning a state title at Warren over the next 7 years? No offense to Warren… but no it’s not happening 

How could you possibly know that for sure?  What in Surratt's past head coaching history would make you think he couldn't?!

[TheMissingBand]

Smalley is a good coach… not elite in my book at this point. To answer AAW, Joseph is elite and will be considered as such for a long time, even without a return trip to Dallas. Hickman from WOS is apparently a better coach then I expected, and a few more seasons like last year will have him moving into the elite category with Joseph. 
 

I don’t even know who’s in newton these days, but they aren’t elite. Barbray and Johnston weren’t either, but that’s a completely different subject. 

[bullets13]

26 minutes ago, Reagan said:

How could you possibly know that for sure?  What in Surratt's past head coaching history would make you think he couldn't?!

it's nothing to do with Surratt and everything to do with Warren. In the 30 years before Surratt took over Carthage had 23 winning seasons, three .500 seasons and four losing seasons. They made it to at least the second round of the playoffs 13 times in those 30 years and even played for a state championship. It feels like you're under the illusion that Surratt took over a bad football program and turned them almost instantly into a winner. That couldn't be further from the truth. He took over a pretty good program with some really good talent and turned them into a great program that attracted even better talent. Now they're an elite program that attracts elite talent (which he certainly deserves credit for).

On the flipside of that, Warren opened 75 years ago and has 4 playoff appearances in those 75 years. They had 1 playoff "win" in 1958 where they tied and advanced on penetrations. In the last 50 years they have 8 winning seasons, but only made the playoffs twice because they get most of their wins by finding even worse teams to schedule before district. 

Would Warren improve dramatically if Surratt came to town? Obviously. But they aren't winning district in 7 years, much less a state championship. 

[BBfan061]

5 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

it's nothing to do with Surratt and everything to do with Warren. In the 30 years before Surratt took over Carthage had 23 winning seasons, 3 .500 seasons and 4 losing seasons. They made it to at least the second round of the playoffs 13 times in those 30 years and even played for a state championship. It feels like you're under the illusion that Surratt took over a bad football program and turned them almost instantly into a winner. That couldn't be further from the truth. He took over a pretty good program with some really good talent and turned them into a great program that attracted even better talent. Now they're an elite program that attracts elite talent.

On the flipside of that, Warren opened 75 years ago and has 4 playoff appearances in those 75 years. They had 1 playoff "win" in 1958 where they tied and advanced on penetrations. In the last 50 years they have 8 winning seasons, but only made the playoffs twice because they get most of their wins by finding even worse teams to schedule before district. 

Would Warren improve dramatically if Surratt came to town? Obviously. But they aren't winning district in 7 years, much less a state championship. 

Unless… He attracts the talent to move there

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

3 minutes ago, BBfan061 said:

Unless… He attracts the talent to move there

😂 

 

I have a greater chance at winning Texas Lotto and Powerball on the same night than SS getting the type of talent Carthage currently has to move into Warren. 

[Reagan]

12 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

it's nothing to do with Surratt and everything to do with Warren. In the 30 years before Surratt took over Carthage had 23 winning seasons, 3 .500 seasons and 4 losing seasons. They made it to at least the second round of the playoffs 13 times in those 30 years and even played for a state championship.

Warren opened 75 years ago and has 4 playoff appearances in those 75 years. They had 1 playoff "win" in 1958 where they tied and advanced on penetrations. In the last 50 years they have 8 seasons with winning records, but only made the playoffs twice because they get most of their wins by finding even worse teams to schedule before district. 

Would Warren improve dramatically if Surratt came to town? Obviously. But they aren't winning district in 7 years, much less a state championship. 

At Warren, their history, was it athletes or coaching?

[TheMissingBand]

Who was the elite coach that won at Allen, then didn’t do so hot at Barbers Hill? Did he forget how to coach on one of those long trips down I45?

[bullets13]

1 minute ago, BBfan061 said:

Unless… He attracts the talent to move there

I think he'd pull some, but Kountze isn't known for much football talent, and Woodville has been successful enough on it's own to keep a lot of the players. Fred and Spurger aren't spitting out football players.

Carthage is within 30 minutes of Tatum, Beckville, Joaquin, Marshall, Tenaha, Timpson, Center, and Mt. Enterprise. Oh, and 40 minutes from Longview and Kilgore. And without a doubt they're pulling talent from most if not all of those towns. We're talking about a talent-rich environment. Lots of state championship wins and appearances between those towns in the last 20 years. 

[bullets13]

3 hours ago, bullets13 said:

This may have been discussed before, but Kyle Westerberg won 4 state championships in 12 years at Allen and led them to another final. 3 of those were with Kyler Murray. After winning four state championships at the highest level and amassing a 134-16 record over 12 years at Allen, Westerberg moved (to an easier division, and an easier district). Hard to argue those numbers. He's clearly in the elite category. So what changed when he went to Barber's Hill? He still had good facilities, still had a supportive community, had players from good families with lots of opportunities, and I doubt he forgot how to coach. At Barbers hill he went 40-17 in 5 seasons and made the 3rd round of the playoffs once. The program still improved under him, but they didn't sniff a state championship. Then he went to Salado and went 5-15 in two years. Did he turn from elite to only good when he went from Allen to Barbers Hill, and then from good to bad when he went to Salado? The thing is, he didn't have the players to win a championship at Barbers Hill, and didn't have the players to even have a winning record at Salado. But you know who could've won a championship (or two or three) at Barbers Hill? The 2012-2014 Allen Eagles, led by Kyler Murray. It wouldn't even take the whole team. Probably only 5 kids from each side of the ball combined with whoever BH had at the time would be enough. And they wouldn't need Westerberg coaching them to get it done. Any competent coach would do. 

@TheMissingBand in answer of the question you just asked, here's a post I made just this morning.

[bullets13]

6 minutes ago, Reagan said:

At Warren, their history, was it athletes or coaching?

I'm about to do a deep dive for you. But I bet it's a lot of the former and a little of the latter. 

[Reagan]

26 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

I'm about to do a deep dive for you. But I bet it's a lot of the former and a little of the latter. 

I like it.  The deeper the better!  I’m gonna do an even deeper dive for you and others here shortly! 

[bullets13]

29 minutes ago, Reagan said:

I like it.  The deeper the better!  I’m gonna do an even deeper dive for you and others here shortly! 

I wrote down a lot of numbers, but I don't have time to type them out. Break time is over. Long story short, Warren has a history of bad coaches and lack of talent. A lot of coaches started out at warren and the teams were so bad they never got a shot elsewhere. Is that because they were a bad coach or because they took their one shot at a job with minimal chances of succeeding? But the coaches who've done well at other places did worse at warren, and amongst the most recent coaches at Warren (Babin and Buckner) they definitely had more success elsewhere. Babin did pretty well at both Lumberton and Deweyville, with a 1-9 season at Warren in between. Buckner was mediocre at Santa Fe, 9-49 in 6 years at Warren, and then spent four years at Evadale with two winning seasons and a 22-22 record overall. Without a doubt Warren does better with good coaches, but the coaches who did the best before or after going to Warren didn't do well at Warren. A good season here or there, but not much more than that. Without a doubt a good coach who stayed for a long time would help things, but not THAT much. 

[kirkwood29]

1 hour ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

😂

 

I have a greater chance at winning Texas Lotto and Powerball on the same night than SS getting the type of talent Carthage currently has to move into Warren. 

On a different yet more important note - The town of Warren could be SOLD and they still would not have enough money to purchase Scott Surratt 

[WhoDat]

1 hour ago, TheMissingBand said:

Who was the elite coach that won at Allen, then didn’t do so hot at Barbers Hill? Did he forget how to coach on one of those long trips down I45?

There wasn't a Kyler Murray in BH😉

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, WhoDat said:

There wasn't a Kyler Murray in BH😉

Did Westerberg win a State Title at Allen without Kyler Murray?