oldschool2

1 hour ago, JaspD55 said:

But if you were trying to cook a rotten Goat, wouldnt matter who the cook was, if you can understand the comparison?

You can't make a donkey win a race horse... no matter how good the trainer is.

2 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

Why don't you use some local examples.  Say.... WOS and Newton.  Certainly there must have been some affluent school districts in 3A and 4A during those years, right?

People use the "facilities" argument as an excuse. I mean, now that you mention it, Newton claimed that they lost that one year because they had to ride Yellow Dogs to Dallas and the competition (Lord, the Competition) got to ride charters. 

 

Even though money can have less impact the smaller the classification... because one or a handful of stud players can change an entire season.. Let's see who knocked out Newton and WOS going back to 2010

10-11 Newton- C.H. Yoe
11-12 Newton- Crockett
12-13 Newton- C.H. Yoe
13-14 Newton- White Oak
14-15 Newton- Waskom
15-16 Newton- Franklin
16-17 Newton- Arp
17-18 Newton- State Title over Gunter
18-19 Newton- State Title over Canadian
19-20 Newton- Daingerfield
20-21 Newton- Omaha Paul Pewitt
21-22 Newton- Waskom
22-23 Newton- Harmony

10-11 WOS- Brookshire-Royal
11-12 WOS- Coldspring
12-13 WOS- Navasota
13-14 WOS- Carthage
14-15 WOS- Gilmer
15-16 WOS- State Title over Celina
16-17 WOS- State Title over Sweetwater
17-18 WOS- Pleasant Grove
18-19 WOS- Silsbee
19-20 WOS- Silsbee
20-21 WOS- China Spring
21-22 WOS- China Spring
22-23 WOS- Bellville

You really wanna compare facilities of many of these schools that made them exit?  Not all.. but many..

On 2/4/2023 at 7:16 PM, Rez Ipsa said:

I agree with Reagan’s 7-year principle, but I would modify it. Actually winning a state championship is often out of the hands of even the greatest coaches. Under Reagan’s approach, taken to the extreme, if a coach made it to state 7 years in a row but lost all of them, that coach should be fired. No one in the state would want that coach fired. So apply the 7 year rule more broadly : If a coach doesn’t get you to at least the 4th round within 7 years, you can reasonably assume his ceiling doesn’t go that high. In other words, you can know in 7 years if a coach has the ability to get that team in the range of a state championship. If you can get in that range, anything can happen, but it’s not always in the coach’s control. 

How many schools in the state have never been past round 3?  What if a school has never in its history won 2 playoff games in the same year and hardly ever even makes the playoffs?  What if it's a school like Sabine Pass.. or Warren?  You know.. habitual punching bags.  Then a coach starts making the playoffs consistently and maybe wins a playoff game every once in a while.  

Still need to be fired for not getting to at least 4th round in 7 years?

13 hours ago, Separation Scientist said:

So is there any correlation to athleticism???  

I ask because people whine about "money always wins" which is totally false, but never seem to acknowledge that many "poor" school have overwhelming athleticism. Isn't that a huge, huge advantage? Look at North Shore, one of the most impoverished communities around, they won 3 of the last 4 6A Championships. 

Your example should compare a 5'10", 185lb "rich kid" who runs a 5.3 with a 15in. vertical, to a 6'1" 190lb "poor kid" who runs a 4.5 with a 22in. vertical. Who would you start? 

        

In a way, it does correlate to athleticism.  Because players with access to money, state of the art facilities, personal trainers, proper nutrition, adequate sleep habits,  etc. will likely be in better physical shape than a kid without access to those.  It's not the RULE, but it definitely makes it more likely. 

By the way, and I've been clear about this, it's referring to a LIKLIHOOD.  There are always and will always be exceptions.  I don't understand why that's so hard to understand. By the way.. which years are you talking about? 20-21 was Austin Westlake and Katy.  21-22 was Northshore and Austin Westlake.  Include the 5A champions... Aledo, Guyer, Katy Paetow... you not familiar with the areas?  Even if you're correct about 3 out of 4 including this year, look at the last 10 years.  Or 15.. list the football state champions for 4A/5A/6A and tell me the percentage of those communities that have an average household income higher than the state average.  Not to mention the state champs in all other sports.  If you don't see that communities with money have a higher likelihood of success in athletics (not to be confused with athleticism), then your eyes are closed. 

14 hours ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

Dude dumb 🤣 

Yeah, I'm done.  It's like arguing with a wall anyway.

15 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Not agreeing with you.  You agreed with me by me making it easy to understand.  The statement you made that I was talking about will present itself shortly.  

There isn't anything I've posted that's difficult to understand.  If you think I agreed with you then you stopped reading at, "it's most certainly easy".  Because otherwise you would've seen me say that the reason he had a mediocre stretch was because he had mediocre players. 

1 minute ago, Reagan said:

I’m glad you understand it’s easy.  😁.  Also glad you made one statement here.

By agreeing with me, you're admitting that the "7 year program" doesn't work without players good enough to win.  Which is what we've all been saying for several pages now.  

22 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I must apologize… I got lost somewhere. What is the 7 year program?

He has a list of coaches that he deems "elite".. that have either won multiple state championships, state championships at more than one school, or both.  And he believes that any of those coaches or any coach of that caliber would go to any school, of any classification, with any level of talent/ability, and win a state championship within 7 years.

22 minutes ago, Reagan said:

LOL!  I save the easy ones for last!  

It's most certainly easy.  Why did one of your elite coaches go 7 years with mediocre record each year, after winning his second state title?  Because he didn't have players good enough to make a deep run with.

You're right.  Easy. I just want you to admit it.. even though you probably wont. 

1 hour ago, Reagan said:

Theory?  My 7 year program is a doable fact for any school district that wants to try it.  The bottom line is it's left up to each school district.  Now, if a school wants to use this 7 year program in other sports, well, again, that's left up to them.  It would eventually work every time it's tried.  I mean if the community feels strongly about the golf team, then by all means go for the 7 year program.  But, doesn't matter to me one way or the other.  Again -- hope is NOT a strategy!  

Sigh... selective responses.. 

9 hours ago, Reagan said:

Ethridge has appeared in 4 State Titles and has won 2 of them.  How many State Titles has Neumann and the present Nederland coach appeared and/or won?

After Landry and Lombardi won their last Super Bowls they didn't win any more.  Did they take their Hall Of Fame status away from them?  Of course not!

"

Etheridge Records after 1977

'78- 6-4

'79- 4-5-1

'80- 7-3

'81- 3-7

'82- 4-6

'83- 6-3-1

'84- 2-8 @Round Rock"

You still didn't explain that ^.  I need your explanation to why he (AN ELITE COACH) managed a 7 year stretch that you would've fired him for... after winning his 2nd state title.  4 of those 7 years were below .500.  Explain that.

It's not about taking hall of fame status away.. just admitting that he didn't have the players.  Proving that even a great coach can't do it without good players.  Like I've said countless times, Bill Belichick is an average to below average coach without Tom Brady.  79-87 without him, to be exact. 

6 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

I'm curious if you don't win in your seven years and get fired, does that make you ineligible to get hired somewhere else?  It kinda seems like you're outkicking the coverage on this one.  For every coach who ever wins a state championship there are dozens who never will.  Not sure how you can keep firing really good coaches in the hopes of finding an elite coach when by Reagan's standards, there are less than 10-15 "elite" coaches at any given time roaming the sidelines of Texas football stadiums, while there are over 1500 high school football teams in the state. 

Great point.. but it doesn't make sense to pretend that the idea is anything other than what it is.. idiotic.  Even coaches on his own list of elite coaches were proven do have mediocre or poor seasons after winning their 2nd+ state title.  

13 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

This is the most truth I’ve heard. I’ll add parents/community to the mix too (which equates to tolerance, support and spending). To think good coaching is all it takes has never coached at that level. 

This too.  100% correct. 

30 minutes ago, Razor said:

This stuff isn’t that hard…reality is that you need both, coaching and talent…too many folks live in a world of absolutes, saying “it’s all the kids” or “it’s all the coaching “ when neither is true…great coaches have bad years and talented teams fail to meet expectations all the time

il assure you this, there ain’t many no talent teams winning championships but plenty of very talented ones who have success, but don’t win the whole thing

Everybody here know this... except for one.

14 minutes ago, KF89 said:

Of course not. Same type players, same great community support & same elite coaching but not the state title winning results as '77 the other 10 years. 

The fact that he only believes that "elite coaching" happens in football tells me everything I need. 

7 minutes ago, KF89 said:

What were the factors that changed for The Elite coaching of Doug Etheridge after 1977 @ PNG with the same type players? Seems he was average coach after that year. My guess would be the players @ PNG from '78-'83 were not as talented as a whole or never understood the skills being taught by his elite coaching techniques like the players from '74-'77. 

Etheridge Records after 1977

'78- 6-4

'79- 4-5-1

'80- 7-3

'81- 3-7

'82- 4-6

'83- 6-3-1

'84- 2-8 @Round Rock

  

None of that will matter to him.  Etheridge is "elite".

9 hours ago, Reagan said:

Two of these you mentioned wasn't even there for 7 years.  One, I think, was there for only 3 years.  Depending on how bad the school was they went to not sure they enough time.  Things at Stephenville was so bad it took Briles 6 years to win his first of 4 Titles.  But I'll give you some fat to chew on:  Todd Dodge, Dickie Meeks Emory Bellard, Gordon Wood, G.A. Moore, Doug Ethridge, Jason Herring, Steve Lineweaver, and Chad Morris.  All Elite coaches that won Titles at different schools.  Of course there are many more.  But, the bunch I have stated is the rule.  Yours is the "exception" to the rule.  There's nothing ever in a straight line.  There's always minor detours.  But those are few and far between

Coaching is the most important thing in football.  I think some here found that out when they got the right coach at PNG.  And saw the sad downfall at WOS.  Same kids -- different coach.  Amazing how that works!

I'm sure there are still some that says Matthews and, say, Briles has the same coaching ability.  That it's only the kids that are the difference/problem.   If that's the case, then I still have some work to do here.  But, rest assured I'll not quit until everyone thinks like me!  LOL!  (Grin).

A point again:  As it stands right now, if Calallen could hire either Phil Danaher or Tim Buchanan -- which one would they hire?

First of all, the names I mentioned aren't exceptions to the rule.  They also represent a few of many that had great success and then average or below average seasons after at some point.  Even the Great G.A. Moore had some somewhat mediocre seasons mixed in between those title runs.  His last year as a head coach was a losing season.  And you're talking about schools that are powers either beforehand or since said coach left.  Celina, Pilot Point, suburb Austin, Aledo.. are you serious?  Areas of the state that have gone through the most substantial transformations of wealth/growth over the last couple decades anywhere.  Same thing happened in the Beaumont area during the oil boom.  And the Permian Basin area during that oil boom.

I will never not give credit to CT for how he handled WOS prior to the current coach.. but I think it had to do with player management more than anything (a coaching quality no doubt).  Because I was told that this year's WOS team had players walking off the field during games, insanely poor attitudes, etc.  And that might just be the main difference, because like you said and I agree with.. same kids, different coach.  But I don't attribute that to coaching ability (Xs and Os) as much as I do player management.  Time will tell with all of that.

PNG- same sentiment.  Time will tell.  This was a great year for them but they're losing a bunch of seniors.  How confident are you that they'll repeat or somewhat repeat the level of success they had this year?

I personally think Phil Danaher and Tim Buchanan have a very similar qualification to be hired.  Buchanan has an unprecedented 8 state titles... but, at a school with 3 state titles during that same time period when he wasn't head coach.  And almost his entire career was spent at Aledo.  Danaher may not have rings but he has a lot of success at 3 different schools that didn't have anywhere near that level of success without him.  Like I said.. being an elite coach doesn't JUST mean winning state titles.  I'm not gonna sway on that.  You're obviously not going to sway on your opinion.  It is what it is.

There isn't a coach you named that could EVER win a state championship at countless school across the state right now or within 7 years of now.  I'll bet every dollar I've ever made or will ever make on that.  Coincidentally, there are a ton of great coaches right now that could have similar levels of success right now or within 7 years at some schools across the state.

12 minutes ago, Reagan said:

And educated you will get!  😁

I found another I'd forgotten about.  Lee Fedora.  He actually embarrassed Coach Thompson and WOS on his way to his first of 2 state titles in Navasota (elite).. and then went to A&M Consolidated for 6 years and couldn't get past the first couple rounds.  What the heck??  That doesn't make sense... He's "elite" so he should've at least gotten back to Austin, right?  I don't understand you're exact way of thinking. 

5 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Ha!  I’ll answer shortly.  Yours is easy.  

Cant wait.  I'm sure it'll all make sense when you explain how elite coaches win multiple championships then don't get close for several years after.  I'm looking forward to the education. 

19 minutes ago, Reagan said:

The main thing is you want to get it right.  Don't rush.  Find the best candidate possible.  

That's right.. ignore my questions.  That way you'll be right in your own mind. 

I actually watched the game on Anahuac's YouTube channel.  They had the game.. if they could've made a free throw down the stretch.  I think they missed 8 straight including and1's and the end of the game. 

On 1/28/2023 at 11:39 PM, Reagan said:

My thoughts are for football only!

So.. elite coaches only exist in football?  Got it.  

Since that the case... When is Tom Westerberg going to win another one?  He's elite according to your thinking. When is Jeff Kasowski going to win another one?  He won 3 in a row at Bremond.. and hasn't been close since 2016.  What happened with Rick Rhoades?  He won 3 at Cameron Yoe and didn't come close for the next 7 seasons. What happened with Rusty Nail?  He won his second title at Mart in 2010.. then didn't win another for 8 years.  Including not even getting close at 3 years in Madisonville.

Explain to me how these elite coaches became worse coaches... 

By the way.. these are just 3 recent examples.  I'm sure there are tons more.

16 hours ago, Reagan said:

No changes in my thoughts on this.  The Elite coach category is mine.  In order to gain entrance one must have 2 or more State Titles.  Now, Danaher is a great coach, no doubt.  But one must always wonder:  After all those years and all those wins why no State Titles?  If I remember right, one of the previous posters that supposedly was close to the action, said Calallen was like the tallest midget in the room.  Then in the playoffs they couldn't urinate in the tall weeds with the big dogs.  Being a Championship coach is not easy.  If it was then everybody would have 10 or 20.  But -- membership is exclusive.   One has to have that extra "something" to win multiple Championships.  

Let me put this question out to all:  As it stands right now, which coach would Calallen hire -- Phil Danaher or Tim Buchanan?  Pretty clear to me!  But...

I’m going to use a local example from a different sport of two men I think do a great job with what they have at what they try to do.

Coach Joubert at Kountze and Coach Sutherland at EC.  Both with 2 or more state titles (elite according to you).  Both well over 7 years since their last state title.  Kountze, coincidentally, is fighting for a playoff spot (4th place).  Are they worse coaches than they were? Please explain.

6 minutes ago, Reagan said:

This has already been dealt with in the past.  But I'm going to discuss this again shortly.

I know.  I'm hoping you repeat your thoughts on this for the folks in the conversation that weren't last time.  And also make you think a little deeper about your assessment of what makes an elite coach.

11 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Two things: First of all it didn't take much to have an upgrade in LCM from what they had as a coach.  The previous LCM coach:  12 year record:  51-70.  Only once did he have a 7 win season.  But, on the other hand, although the new coach is a major upgrade, it doesn't appear that he's a Championship-type coach.  It all depends on what LCM ISD wants.  They hung on to a not-so-good coach last time for 12 years so this one might have a lifetime appointment.  Again -- it's all depends on where their goals are.

Is Phil Danaher an elite coach?  According to your theory.. he would've been fired at Calallen several times over.  Even though he won more Texas high school football games than anyone that's ever coached and reached state finals twice, state semi-finals 11 times, state quarter finals 6 times, and regional finals 9 times.  That's more deep runs than many of your "elite coaches" that you constantly talk about.

So.. again.  Is Phil Danaher an elite coach? Or is he someone that should've been fired?