US Capitol Police refuse to release their own use of force guidelines. Who shot Ashley Babbitt?

[thetragichippy]

I'm not sure I agree or disagree with the shooting.  We don't know the use of force guidelines.  What I do know, is if this was a city police officer and she was black, the media would be up in arms and the headlines would read "unarmed black woman shot by police during mostly peaceful protest"

[BS Wildcats]

  On 5/25/2021 at 2:17 PM, thetragichippy said:

I'm not sure I agree or disagree with the shooting.  We don't know the use of force guidelines.  What I do know, is if this was a city police officer and she was black, the media would be up in arms and the headlines would read "unarmed black woman shot by police during mostly peaceful protest"

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No more truer words could be written!!  Funny how a certain crowd can’t/won’t see this.

[tvc184]

  On 5/25/2021 at 2:17 PM, thetragichippy said:

I'm not sure I agree or disagree with the shooting.  We don't know the use of force guidelines.  What I do know, is if this was a city police officer and she was black, the media would be up in arms and the headlines would read "unarmed black woman shot by police during mostly peaceful protest"

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This one would again cause riots and more calls to defund the police if the roles were reversed.

[Big girl]

  On 5/24/2021 at 5:58 PM, bullets13 said:

My opinion on it is this... you had a bunch of nutjobs storm the capitol.  One of them got killed in a highly publicized shooting.  Since the officer wasn't charged with a crime, I don't at all blame them for doing their best to protect his identity.  I'd think there's a very real chance of some other nutjob trying to come after him (the kind of person that would storm the capitol, maybe?).  He was cleared by a grand jury.  Knowing his identity doesn't do anything for anyone.  If he'd been charged with a crime it would be out there.  

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I agree, wholeheartedly 

[SmashMouth]

  On 5/24/2021 at 5:58 PM, bullets13 said:

My opinion on it is this... you had a bunch of nutjobs storm the capitol.  One of them got killed in a highly publicized shooting.  Since the officer wasn't charged with a crime, I don't at all blame them for doing their best to protect his identity.  I'd think there's a very real chance of some other nutjob trying to come after him (the kind of person that would storm the capitol, maybe?).  He was cleared by a grand jury.  Knowing his identity doesn't do anything for anyone.  If he'd been charged with a crime it would be out there.  

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I agree that his name should be protected unless charged with a crime. It’s funny though. Many officers who are put on administrative leave after a shooting of a minority, but are not charged with a crime, have their names put out there. I see a double standard. I wonder if their use of force protocols were broken, which would then open up the officer to a criminal charge...which is why they refuse to release the guidelines in the first place.

[Big girl]

  On 5/24/2021 at 2:26 PM, SmashMouth said:

But she wasn’t armed...nor was she (and I dare say anyone else) trying to overthrow the government. Merely being arrested would have been enough. 

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She was a part of a mob storming the Capitol. Wasn't she breaking and entering via a window?

[Big girl]

  On 5/24/2021 at 4:16 PM, bullets13 said:

It's just been a weird dynamic on this one for me... many of the same people that are pissed about this officer making a split-second decision to shoot an insurrectionist breaching the house chambers don't have any of the same animosity towards an officer who spent nearly a quarter of an hour kneeling on a handcuffed subject's neck.  

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Yep

[thetragichippy]

  On 5/27/2021 at 12:24 AM, Big girl said:

She was a part of a mob storming the Capitol. Wasn't she breaking and entering via a window?

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Ok, I’m going throw the narrative the left always throws.... “should breaking and entering be a death sentence”?

[Englebert]

  On 5/24/2021 at 4:16 PM, bullets13 said:

It's just been a weird dynamic on this one for me... many of the same people that are pissed about this officer making a split-second decision to shoot an insurrectionist breaching the house chambers don't have any of the same animosity towards an officer who spent nearly a quarter of an hour kneeling on a handcuffed subject's neck.  

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I don't look at it that way at all. My opinion is that many people are baffled/exacerbated/pissed that an officer that kills a Black person is held to one standard, but an officer that kills a White person is held to a completely different standard. I don't want to speak for others, but that is my opinion of why this is an issue.

(Sorry for the late reply, but I haven't been keeping up with the topics here lately. My reply might have already been discussed further in this topic, considering I'm just now reading the first page.)

[SmashMouth]

  On 5/27/2021 at 12:24 AM, Big girl said:

She was a part of a mob storming the Capitol. Wasn't she breaking and entering via a window?

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If a person is seen entering through a public building’s window, should the police be able to shoot them dead? How do they know she wasn’t trying to escape the “violence “?

[tvc184]

  On 5/27/2021 at 12:24 AM, Big girl said:

She was a part of a mob storming the Capitol. Wasn't she breaking and entering via a window?

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Breaking and entering is not a violent crime. In the US Supreme Court case of Garner v. Tennessee they ruled that the police could not use force to stop by non-violent crime. In fact Garner was a breaking and entering case. The police are not allowed to use deadly force to stop a crime. 

[bullets13]

  On 5/27/2021 at 7:17 AM, tvc184 said:

Breaking and entering is not a violent crime. In the US Supreme Court case of Garner v. Tennessee they ruled that the police could not use force to stop by non-violent crime. In fact Garner was a breaking and entering case. The police are not allowed to use deadly force to stop a crime. 

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Would “breaking and entering” be the crime she would’ve/could’ve been charged with here? 

[Big girl]

  On 5/27/2021 at 2:12 AM, thetragichippy said:

Ok, I’m going throw the narrative the left always throws.... “should breaking and entering be a death sentence”?

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If someone is coming into your house through a window, along with an angry mob, what are you going to do? Yet, some of you are ok with an officer shooting someone that is running away

 

[Big girl]

  On 5/27/2021 at 2:57 AM, Englebert said:

I don't look at it that way at all. My opinion is that many people are baffled/exacerbated/pissed that an officer that kills a Black person is held to one standard, but an officer that kills a White person is held to a completely different standard. I don't want to speak for others, but that is my opinion of why this is an issue.

(Sorry for the late reply, but I haven't been keeping up with the topics here lately. My reply might have already been discussed further in this topic, considering I'm just now reading the first page.)

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So, if it were a black woman storming the Capitol with an angry mob, would you say the killing was justified?

[Big girl]

  On 5/27/2021 at 3:12 AM, SmashMouth said:

If a person is seen entering through a public building’s window, should the police be able to shoot them dead? How do they know she wasn’t trying to escape the “violence “?

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How was she trying to escape the violence?  She was a part of the mob.

[SmashMouth]

  On 5/27/2021 at 2:59 PM, Big girl said:

How was she trying to escape the violence?  She was a part of the mob.

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How did the cop know that? Maybe he should have ascertained that she was dangerous and needed to be killed before killing her. 

Do you think that any deemed violent protest should open the door to a police officer legally shooting an unarmed member of that protest?

[tvc184]

  On 5/27/2021 at 10:50 AM, bullets13 said:

Would “breaking and entering” be the crime she would’ve/could’ve been charged with here? 

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No. There is no evidence of any crime except trespassing which is a misdemeanor. A citizen, not the police, have the defense to prosecution in Texas that they were stopping a burglary (breaking and entering) in progress IF deadly force was reasonably needed. The police absolutely do not have that authority as demonstrated by SCOTUS in Garner. The police can use deadly force to stop a threat of deadly force.

 In Garner SCOTUS said there had to be a violent act or the threat of violence for the police to justify deadly force. Maybe she had something that looked like a weapon in her hand and was screaming “I am going to kill you #%£{@!!!”.

If that is true, they need to release at least the claim and an explanation. At least from what I have seen, the officer doing the shooting was the only one with a gun drawn. Why with several officers with him trying to stop a small and likely unarmed woman coming through a window, was he the only one to even draw a weapon? 

According apparently to their prosecutors, it does not even warrant a trial which means it had to be so clear-cut it it was obviously self-defense.

It should not matter but again, swap the roles and see what the outcome would be. A white cop, surrounded by other officers, none of who feel threatened enough to draw their weapon, shoots an unarmed small black female coming through a window. 

[SmashMouth]

  On 5/27/2021 at 7:17 AM, tvc184 said:

Breaking and entering is not a violent crime. In the US Supreme Court case of Garner v. Tennessee they ruled that the police could not use force to stop by non-violent crime. In fact Garner was a breaking and entering case. The police are not allowed to use deadly force to stop a crime. 

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Exactly. You stole my thunder. I was setting that one up after the next silly reply from @biggirl.

[thetragichippy]

  On 5/27/2021 at 1:40 PM, Big girl said:

If someone is coming into your house through a window, along with an angry mob, what are you going to do? Yet, some of you are ok with an officer shooting someone that is running away

 

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If someone is breaking into my home that is MUCH different than this situation.  

[SmashMouth]

  On 5/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, Big girl said:

So, if it were a black woman storming the Capitol with an angry mob, would you say the killing was justified?

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Definitely not. 

[SmashMouth]

  On 5/27/2021 at 2:59 PM, Big girl said:

How was she trying to escape the violence?  She was a part of the mob.

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  On 5/27/2021 at 3:29 PM, SmashMouth said:

How did the cop know that? Maybe he should have ascertained that she was dangerous and needed to be killed before killing her. 

Do you think that any deemed violent protest should open the door to a police officer legally shooting an unarmed member of that protest?

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Are you ok with police shooting unarmed people in a public place?

[Big girl]

  On 5/27/2021 at 9:14 PM, thetragichippy said:

If someone is breaking into my home that is MUCH different than this situation.  

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How is it different?

[Big girl]

  On 5/27/2021 at 9:33 PM, SmashMouth said:

 

Are you ok with police shooting unarmed people in a public place?

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When that person is part of a violent mob, entering through a window they broke, yep. Are you okay with officers shooting people who are running away?

[thetragichippy]

  On 5/28/2021 at 2:07 PM, Big girl said:

How is it different?

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1.  A private home is completely different than a public place. 

2. A person during the day breaks into a private business, should the police be able to shoot them?

[thetragichippy]

  On 5/28/2021 at 2:09 PM, Big girl said:

When that person is part of a violent mob, entering through a window they broke, yep. Are you okay with officers shooting people who are running away?

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So you would of been ok with the Seattle Police shooting all these rioters that stormed and took over the police station? If so, we may have found some common ground.