SETX Shortcomings

[Sportsguy17]

 off season workouts

 

[WOSgrad]

6 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

I have a theory or 2.  But before I share.

Name the schools in SeTX that have had the same coach for 10+ or so years.  Any sport..boys or girls.

Strangely enough, Cornel Thompson would not be on that list.  However, I understand (I think) what you are saying with that question.  One of the factors of the success of the Mustang football program has been the continuity of the program from Steve McCarty to Dan Hooks, who was McCarty's right hand man to Thompson, who right hand man to Hooks.  And it does take this sort of continuity to establish a winning program.  This is because as sons and nephews of the original Mustangs know exactly what is expected of them when they show up to run that Mustang Mile and what it takes to earn a silver helmet.

And it is the community support for those standards which allows that continuity to remain.  Believe me there are some...you have seen some of them post here....who wish to take their shots at Coach Thompson.  Every community has their set of village idiots.  And he has not always had the golden touch.  I remember that it took 4 games for Coach Thompson to win his first game at WO-S as head coach and that he insisted on moving out of the spread to the I formation.  Even through all of those the community continued to trust Coach Thompson and believe that his decisions, his words and his action were intended for two purposes, to make the West Orange-Stark Mustangs a stronger football team and to make the individual members of that team better people.  You will never see Cornel Thompson saddled with a derogatory nickname from Mustang fans or you won't see "For Sale" signs in his yard after the next loss, which although I find unlikely, could occur as soon as this weekend.  You won't see people calling Orange County Sheriff Keith Merritt or seeking an investigation from Orange County DA John Kimbrough for practices that parents think are "a little too strenous."  You won't because even those who might not care for Coach Thompson respect him in the community.

And of course, you need stellar athletes.  Coach Thompson has acknowledged that himself that you need that. hence the now infamous statement that "You can't win the Kentucky Derby with a mule."  And yes, this band of athletes is special, on both sides of the ball, in the backfield, on the line and in the secondary and many of them have played together since they were 5 years old. They are not only talented, but they are some of the most grounded, hardest working and intelligent young men you will ever want to meet.  They don't need to be prompted by coaches to get work in during the months of January, February or March, they are already doing it on their own.  And guess what, the Mustangs that are coming behind them are preparing the same way.  Will they be able to continue what this class of Mustangs have done even if that run ends this weekend?  The answer to that question we won't know until about this time next year or the next few years after.

But it will be certainly fun to find out and those in the community will be as proud of their effort to do so as they are of these young men who have been taking Mustang fans on this fantastic ride.

[PlayActionPass]

So the formula is Tradition, quality Coaching that includes continuity through change, talented athletes and community support?

If this is the magic formula then what are the teams in our area missing that keeps them from reaching the same heights as WOS. 

[Alpha Wolf]

15 hours ago, PlayActionPass said:

I know you do Jag. There is no doubt about that. Central has the cats to be Regional Contender every year and on those special years State Championship contenders. Why can't they get over the hump? Crosby is very similar. What is the X-Factor? What has WOS done that nobody else in our area can?

I told someone yesterday that I wouldn't say to much on here.  Not a shot at any coach or school in Beaumont, more about the system...

I think any coach that coaches in Beaumont is at a disadvantage.  I say that because like several of you have said, the smaller communities start in middle school with running the same offensive systems that their respective high schools run.  Our 6 middle schools in Beaumont play for wins, not to prepare the kids for what they will be doing at the high school level.  There are only 2 coaches per school for the 7th grade team and 2 for the 8th grade team, with approximately 30 to 50 kids per team depending on the school.  Too many kids, not enough coaches and they do not allow parents to assist.  From personal experience, I'll tell anyone with a kid about to be playing football in Beaumont's middle school system that 7th grade ball is a joke.  8th grade is usually a little better.  They would do better in letting their kids continue to play for the Bulls, Bulldogs, Thunder, Crusaders, etc in the 7th grade.  Generally these teams have 20 to 25 kids, with 3 to 6 coaches which usually means they get better instruction.  Then the kids at those middle schools pretty much go to whichever of the 3 high schools that they want to.  So all 3 head coaches really don't get to start implementing their system until the kids freshman year.

 

[PlayActionPass]

18 hours ago, dayton said:

23 minutes ago, Jag Insider said:

I told someone yesterday that I wouldn't say to much on here.  Not a shot at any coach or school in Beaumont, more about the system...

I think any coach that coaches in Beaumont is at a disadvantage.  I say that because like several of you have said, the smaller communities start in middle school with running the same offensive systems that their respective high schools run.  Our 6 middle schools in Beaumont play for wins, not to prepare the kids for what they will be doing at the high school level.  There are only 2 coaches per school for the 7th grade team and 2 for the 8th grade team, with approximately 30 to 50 kids per team depending on the school.  Too many kids, not enough coaches and they do not allow parents to assist.  From personal experience, I'll tell anyone with a kid about to be playing football in Beaumont's middle school system that 7th grade ball is a joke.  8th grade is usually a little better.  They would do better in letting their kids continue to play for the Bulls, Bulldogs, Thunder, Crusaders, etc in the 7th grade.  Generally these teams have 20 to 25 kids, with 3 to 6 coaches which usually means they get better instruction.  Then the kids at those middle schools pretty much go to whichever of the 3 high schools that they want to.  So all 3 head coaches really don't get to start implementing their system until the kids freshman year.

 

There is no doubt that consistency from the Junior High up helps a tremendous amount.

[oldage football]

as every parent knows the key to success is to play then  10 best players you've got with my son

[WOSgrad]

1 hour ago, PlayActionPass said:

So the formula is Tradition, quality Coaching that includes continuity through change, talented athletes and community support?

If this is the magic formula then what are the teams in our area missing that keeps them from reaching the same heights as WOS. 

Well, I don't know if those are all the factors in the formula, but these are at the very least some of the essential elements.

I think we need to step back and consider one thing in reviewing this subject...a deep run in the playoffs is not a birth right.  Over 700 teams started 5 weeks ago on a quest for a UIL state championship in their respective classes and divisions.  Out of those over 700 teams, only 44 (40 in 6A-2A, 4 in 1A) are still playing football this weekend.  Several great teams will not be among those suiting up this weekend.

I only mention that because some here seem to infer, and some go as far as to suggest, that a long playoff run, regardless of the sport, is a birth right and that if it doesn't occur that something or someone is to blame.  Occasionally, that might be the case.  Yes, in addition to having talent, you have to have breaks go your way to navigate this gauntlet. However, that situation is much rarer than is suggested here.  As hard as it is to accept, it is more often than not just the fact that the team that the bracket lines your team up against is simply better than yours.  I have had to accept that all but 3 times for my beloved Mustangs, may have to accept that this weekend or next and will probably have to accept it for years to come.

Don't take it for granted and don't try too hard to analyze why it doesn't occur more often.  Just enjoy it when it happens, even if it is just once, because you never know if it will ever happen again.

[PlayActionPass]

3 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

Well, I don't know if those are all the factors in the formula, but these are at the very least some of the essential elements.

I think we need to step back and consider one thing in reviewing this subject...a deep run in the playoffs is not a birth right.  Over 700 teams started 5 weeks ago on a quest for a UIL state championship in their respective classes and divisions.  Out of those over 700 teams, only 44 (40 in 6A-2A, 4 in 1A) are still playing football this weekend.  Several great teams will not be among those suiting up this weekend.

I only mention that because some here seem to infer, and some go as far as to suggest, that a long playoff run, regardless of the sport, is a birth right and that if it doesn't occur that something or someone is to blame.  Occasionally, that might be the case.  Yes, in addition to having talent, you have to have breaks go your way to navigate this gauntlet. However, that situation is much rarer than is suggested here.  As hard as it is to accept, it is more often than not just the fact that the team that the bracket lines your team up against is simply better than yours.  I have had to accept that all but 3 times for my beloved Mustangs, may have to accept that this weekend or next and will probably have to accept it for years to come.

Don't take it for granted and don't try too hard to analyze why it doesn't occur more often.  Just enjoy it when it happens, even if it is just once, because you never know if it will ever happen again.

Very well said and thank you for your honesty.

I know match ups and luck play a part, but I was trying to put my finger on the intangibles that a Championship team has that others may not possess. There are a number of teams/schools in our area that have the athletes to make deep runs year in and year out, but seem to fall short. I was hoping to figure out what WOS has that those others don't.

[JPG8101]

Unfortunately, coaches today are handcuffed by the "don't work my baby too hard" attitudes of the parents and cant really break these kids down and build that tough, aggressive, yet disciplined attitude that you see at "The WOS."  I know there have been some cases like at HF where the coaches decisions on punishment resulted in some kids being hospitalized but that is a rare occurrence.  I believe in corporal punishment and the use of the paddle....trust me IT WORKS!!! I have experienced it first hand.  Kids shouldn't relate punishment to having to do physical work.  Success and rewards should derive from physical work.  Physical pain should be the result of punishment. 

I cant say for sure but my guess is that "Ole' Woddy" still makes his presence known at WOS.  I know this may be a little off the beaten path but there is a direct correlation between the discipline of the athletes, the support of the community to trust in the coaches in the disciplining their kids, and the results of that showing on the field.  Fear is not a bad thing, it keeps you on your toes and keeps you sharp.  WOS uses that to their advantage by striking fear into their opponent. 

Those boys are tough, physical, disciplined and flat out nasty.  That doesn't happen because the coaches are walking on egg shells trying to avoid a lawsuit because lil Johnny came home crying because he got tackled too hard or he had to run until he puked.

That being said...you must have the horses, you must have leadership in the group, you must have coaches that players respect, you must have parents that trust in the system, and discipline must be instilled at a young age.   Right or wrong, its only my opinion.  If you want to figure out what it is holding your team back, take a look around.

[WOSgrad]

14 minutes ago, JPG8101 said:

Unfortunately, coaches today are handcuffed by the "don't work my baby too hard" attitudes of the parents and cant really break these kids down and build that tough, aggressive, yet disciplined attitude that you see at "The WOS."  I know there have been some cases like at HF where the coaches decisions on punishment resulted in some kids being hospitalized but that is a rare occurrence.  I believe in corporal punishment and the use of the paddle....trust me IT WORKS!!! I have experienced it first hand.  Kids shouldn't relate punishment to having to do physical work.  Success and rewards should derive from physical work.  Physical pain should be the result of punishment. 

I cant say for sure but my guess is that "Ole' Woddy" still makes his presence known at WOS.  I know this may be a little off the beaten path but there is a direct correlation between the discipline of the athletes, the support of the community to trust in the coaches in the disciplining their kids, and the results of that showing on the field.  Fear is not a bad thing, it keeps you on your toes and keeps you sharp.  WOS uses that to their advantage by striking fear into their opponent. 

Those boys are tough, physical, disciplined and flat out nasty.  That doesn't happen because the coaches are walking on egg shells trying to avoid a lawsuit because lil Johnny came home crying because he got tackled too hard or he had to run until he puked.

That being said...you must have the horses, you must have leadership in the group, you must have coaches that players respect, you must have parents that trust in the system, and discipline must be instilled at a young age.   Right or wrong, its only my opinion.  If you want to figure out what it is holding your team back, take a look around.

My understanding is that Coach Thompson is still in possession of a little friend called "POT."  However, today's rules and regulations probably limit how much he can use it.

[mistro]

It starts in the off season, while most of the kids playing at Vidor,PNG, Ned, Lum, etc go from football to basketball, baseball, or soccer. The kids from WOS and Newton are have started working for next football season. That is the nature of the beast with bigger schools you have athletes that pick one sport and play it. Also if you look at the teams that are in the playoffs most of them are building at the middle school and jr high level. BISD middle school programs are a joke, there is nobody guiding these coaches and would bet some of them are not even certified teachers mostly washouts who still think they know the game. Excluding WOS and Newton if your team wins district, makes playoffs and even goes a couple deep be HAPPY.  State Championship at 5A and 6A level will NEVER happen in Southeast Texas.

If Kelly was smart offer scholarships and build a program( get a quality coach)  that is where your State Championship can be won in Southeast Texas.

 

[robanadana]

The shortcoming with Southeast Texas is that the area and area schools are shrinking. True, WOS keeps their winning ways but they have dropped classifications dramatically since they were a 5A in the early 2000s. Most of the schools in our area in the 5A classification are in the 1100 - 1500 kid range which won't get it under the present format of taking the two smaller schools to the D2 level for state playoffs. You still run into schools who have 1700+ kids who have 50 seniors and very few players if any going both ways. Losing enrollment every year without changing classifications = not very far in the playoffs. Same is true for the lower classifications. Most of the facilities for all the teams are less than standard compared to other areas. Unless new money, new jobs and new people move into the area such as what's happening with the BH and New Caney school districts it will continue to be this way.

[WOSgrad]

28 minutes ago, PlayActionPass said:

Very well said and thank you for your honesty.

I know match ups and luck play a part, but I was trying to put my finger on the intangibles that a Championship team has that others may not possess. There are a number of teams/schools in our area that have the athletes to make deep runs year in and year out, but seem to fall short. I was hoping to figure out what WOS has that those others don't.

I understand what you are saying and the frustration that more runs aren't made. And it appears, usually, that the frustration is greatest in the 5A ranks.  So I will focus on that. 

I think we sometimes underestimate how difficult is is to win a state championship in the UIL's 2nd largest classification. The last time it was done by an SETX team was 29 years ago (West Orange-Stark in 1987).  Heck, only 3 schools since then have even played in the finals for one (West Orange-Stark in 1988 and 2000, Port Neches-Groves in 1999, Dayton in 2008).

Yes, this area has loads of football talent....so do other areas.  And this year provides the textbook example and leads me to ask this question, "Of the 21-5A and 22-5A teams that survived bi-district this year, can you objectively say that the teams that eliminated them possessed less talent?"  My answer would be no. The 4 schools that were survived bi-district from 21-5A and 22-5A (Crosby, New Caney, Port Neches-Groves and Port Arthur Memorial) were eliminated by the four schools that played for the Regional Championships in 5A, DI and 5A, D2 (Manvel, Temple, College Station and Fort Bend Marshall).  Two of those schools (Temple and College Station) remain potential state champions.

Again, the deep runs that we crave are a lot rarer than we think and much more rarer than we desire.

[CardinalBacker]

I think it starts with coaching, and having good athletes doesn't hurt.   Speaking on WOS, they feed from their pee-wee leagues into a solid junior high program, then into the high school program with good coaching every step of the way.  I compare it to our group.... we had good coaching at the pee-wee leagues, then nothing much to speak of until two years ago.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  

Our class this year (2017) played WOS's group straight up through pee-wee... very competitive.  I sat in the bleachers in the 7th/8th grade and watched an army of WOS coaches drilling their kids through warm-ups while our kids were running around and doing back-bends in the end zone. I instantly realized that our kids were getting older, WOS kids were getting better.  It's coaching, hard work, and parents that support the program.  

This is a special, special group from WOS this year.  It's important to remember that WOS has tons of experience against better teams as well.  At the start of this season, we had played 21 games in the last two seasons, while WOS's group had played 32 games against much better competition.  That makes a big difference. 

7-on-7 helps Wos out quite a bit.  I mean.... there's no point in our kids participating since all we do is run.  But the experience their offense gets in the offseason, plus the extra work their secondary gets during 7 on 7 helps a lot.  

[WOSgrad]

36 minutes ago, robanadana said:

The shortcoming with Southeast Texas is that the area and area schools are shrinking. True, WOS keeps their winning ways but they have dropped classifications dramatically since they were a 5A in the early 2000s. Most of the schools in our area in the 5A classification are in the 1100 - 1500 kid range which won't get it under the present format of taking the two smaller schools to the D2 level for state playoffs. You still run into schools who have 1700+ kids who have 50 seniors and very few players if any going both ways. Losing enrollment every year without changing classifications = not very far in the playoffs. Same is true for the lower classifications. Most of the facilities for all the teams are less than standard compared to other areas. Unless new money, new jobs and new people move into the area such as what's happening with the BH and New Caney school districts it will continue to be this way.

I agree to an extent, but the DII numbers this year don't completely bare this out.  Yes, College Station (1743) enjoyed almost a 300 student ADM advantage over PN-G (1447), but Fort Bend Marshall (1280) went into its game sporting a nearly 400 student ADM deficit to Crosby (1668).  But without searching further, it would appear that the Fort Bend Marshall/Crosby situation is more the exception than the rule.

To better level things, the 5A supers need to approve the provision which will be set before them dividing Class 5A, Division I and Division II.

[WOSgrad]

15 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

I think it starts with coaching, and having good athletes doesn't hurt.   Speaking on WOS, they feed from their pee-wee leagues into a solid junior high program, then into the high school program with good coaching every step of the way.  I compare it to our group.... we had good coaching at the pee-wee leagues, then nothing much to speak of until two years ago.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  

Our class this year (2017) played WOS's group straight up through pee-wee... very competitive.  I sat in the bleachers in the 7th/8th grade and watched an army of WOS coaches drilling their kids through warm-ups while our kids were running around and doing back-bends in the end zone. I instantly realized that our kids were getting older, WOS kids were getting better.  It's coaching, hard work, and parents that support the program.  

This is a special, special group from WOS this year.  It's important to remember that WOS has tons of experience against better teams as well.  At the start of this season, we had played 21 games in the last two seasons, while WOS's group had played 32 games against much better competition.  That makes a big difference. 

7-on-7 helps Wos out quite a bit.  I mean.... there's no point in our kids participating since all we do is run.  But the experience their offense gets in the offseason, plus the extra work their secondary gets during 7 on 7 helps a lot.  

I get a little nervous about WO-S being appointed the standard bearer in this subject.  Remember that for all of the success WO-S has enjoyed, even we Mustang fans had to wait 28 years between state championships.

[studd88]

1 hour ago, JPG8101 said:

Unfortunately, coaches today are handcuffed by the "don't work my baby too hard" attitudes of the parents and cant really break these kids down and build that tough, aggressive, yet disciplined attitude that you see at "The WOS."  I know there have been some cases like at HF where the coaches decisions on punishment resulted in some kids being hospitalized but that is a rare occurrence.  I believe in corporal punishment and the use of the paddle....trust me IT WORKS!!! I have experienced it first hand.  Kids shouldn't relate punishment to having to do physical work.  Success and rewards should derive from physical work.  Physical pain should be the result of punishment. 

I cant say for sure but my guess is that "Ole' Woddy" still makes his presence known at WOS.  I know this may be a little off the beaten path but there is a direct correlation between the discipline of the athletes, the support of the community to trust in the coaches in the disciplining their kids, and the results of that showing on the field.  Fear is not a bad thing, it keeps you on your toes and keeps you sharp.  WOS uses that to their advantage by striking fear into their opponent. 

Those boys are tough, physical, disciplined and flat out nasty.  That doesn't happen because the coaches are walking on egg shells trying to avoid a lawsuit because lil Johnny came home crying because he got tackled too hard or he had to run until he puked.

That being said...you must have the horses, you must have leadership in the group, you must have coaches that players respect, you must have parents that trust in the system, and discipline must be instilled at a young age.   Right or wrong, its only my opinion.  If you want to figure out what it is holding your team back, take a look around.

+1

[robanadana]

8 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

I agree to an extent, but the DII numbers this year don't completely bare this out.  Yes, College Station (1743) enjoyed almost a 300 student ADM advantage over PN-G (1447), but Fort Bend Marshall (1280) went into its game sporting a nearly 400 student ADM deficit to Crosby (1668).  But without searching further, it would appear that the Fort Bend Marshall/Crosby situation is more the exception than the rule.

To better level things, the 5A supers need to approve the provision which will be set before them dividing Class 5A, Division I and Division II.

Coming around to my way of thinking, huh! Alas, then Marshall ran into 5A CS who was split out of one school from one area that is on a SUPER growth spurt, CS/B. Same as Nederland vs. Georgetown 2012, etc., etc.

[robanadana]

9 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

I get a little nervous about WO-S being appointed the standard bearer in this subject.  Remember that for all of the success WO-S has enjoyed, even we Mustang fans had to wait 28 years between state championships.

Making my point about population decreasing. It took WOS moving to 4A Div. 2 to accomplish it.

[robanadana]

1 hour ago, WOSgrad said:

My understanding is that Coach Thompson is still in possession of a little friend called "POT."  However, today's rules and regulations probably limit how much he can use it.

Coaches had those in possession back in my day.....great motivator.

[WOSgrad]

8 minutes ago, robanadana said:

Coming around to my way of thinking, huh! Alas, then Marshall ran into 5A CS who was split out of one school from one area that is on a SUPER growth spurt, CS/B. Same as Nederland vs. Georgetown 2012, etc., etc.

I am still not crazy about classes being split into divisions at the start of the season as I don't care for some of the administrative and other problems that is causes.  Some of those are more important than we think, while I'll acknowledge that others are merely aesthetic.

That being said, if the purpose of the DI/DII split at the beginning of the season is to level the playing field as the UIL has claimed, then to not have it exist in the two classes (6A and 5A) where the playing field is not anywhere near level, goes against the historical intent of the UIL's starting a DI and DII in the first place. Recall that in 1990, when two champions were recognized in a UIL classification for the first time, it was done in only one class...Class 6A (then 5A).  It was 8 years before this was tried in any other class and 14 years before it was done in any class below 5A (then 4A).  Yet since then the inequity has occurred in the smaller classes and not in the larger ones since that time, leading to a need for a preseason split in all classes except the 2 largest ones?  I think not and it is this odd manner of UIL dealing that opens it up to the criticism that its decisions are based primarily on financial considerations.

To sum it up, I think the split needs to be an all or nothing proposition and, if you are going to do it, extend it to all classes.

[LCMAlumtiger32]

24 minutes ago, robanadana said:

Making my point about population decreasing. It took WOS moving to 4A Div. 2 to accomplish it.

Do you think if they combined LCM/WOS with these same group of kids that Orange would not have went deep in the playoffs the last few years if they were 5a? I think we would have around 1700 kids. 

[oldage football]

4 minutes ago, LCM17 said:

Do you think if they combined LCM/WOS with these same group of kids that Orange would not have went deep in the playoffs the last few years if they were 5a? I think we would have around 1700 kids. 

who you gona have coachin em T an staff or Crouch an staff

[LCMAlumtiger32]

2 minutes ago, oldage football said:

who you gona have coachin em T an staff or Crouch an staff

WOS coaching staff 

[oldage football]

you need to remember some of the kids playing at LCM are there because they 0r their parents didn't like the way things were done at wos