Dick Vitale

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166398" timestamp="1327605336"] Now that you mention it, why hasn't that tradition carried on in Pt. Arthur?  Shouldn't it be easy for a new coach to take advantage of all that knowledge and experience (that nobody else apparently has)  and continue?  After all, it seems like that is what happened at Lincoln when a new young coach came in and did such a good job.  Surely he was smart enough to have taken advantage of what Mr. Gamble had to offer, right?  If he was only 22 at Kountze, then he was only 25 at Lincoln.  I am going to bet you it has more to do with basketball not being as important at TJ as it was at Lincoln. [/quote] Come on steve, you know what it is...OK...You guys can have this one...I have said my piece and you guys have too...Its OK to agree to disagree... [quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166399#msg1166399 date=1327605445] Show me where ANYONE said "they just rolled the balls out". I'll answer it for you and I will put it in order of importance since you refuse to answer me because you KNEW it would hurt your argument: 1.  Supportive administration-most importantly the superintendent and principal 2.  Supportive athletic director 3.  Solid youth program 4.  Talent (I think talent can come from #3) 5.  Player accessibility (in other words must be getting a fair shake in getting court time for your players-no UOS) 6.  Coaching 7.  Summer programs 8.  System Consistency (constant changes in coaching and philosophy make it difficult) 9.  Gym accessibility 10.  Community interest/support [/quote] Not trying to "win" any arguments here, my man...Those are all valid points in successful program building..we will just have to agree on some points, and agree to disagree on some others...no big deal. [quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166400#msg1166400 date=1327605568] I don't think anyone disagrees with what you are saying about Boutte and his success (I know I don't disagree) but, you are trying to minimize all the other factors that go into being a regular in Austin and make it strictly about coaching and it is so much more than that. [/quote] And that I agree with you 100% on...and have always known that to be fact.

[quote name="speechless" post="1166383" timestamp="1327604208"] [quote]Its not for everyone.....The game is to be sold, not told..[/quote] Oh c'mon Dicky....inquiring minds want to know.  C'mon let a poor guy like myself who knows nothing about Austin learn a little. C'mon...give me the rest of the list of things it takes to be a regular in Austin.  Why are you avoiding the question?  If I don't hear from you then I'll have to assume that the list already compiled is what you believe it takes. [/quote] Please, do not patronize me...I am simply telling you guys that we did not just roll the balls out and headed to Austin and win a state title, as some of you may THINK we did. I am really done with this one..its exhausting, really. [quote author=vp32 link=topic=94873.msg1166386#msg1166386 date=1327604332] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166378#msg1166378 date=1327603917] [quote author=vp32 link=topic=94873.msg1166370#msg1166370 date=1327603261] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166342#msg1166342 date=1327601200] [quote author=baseball25 link=topic=94873.msg1166331#msg1166331 date=1327600226] I am talking about the PG micheal young!! [/quote] That would be Mike Thomas.[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166305#msg1166305 date=1327598237] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166272#msg1166272 date=1327594851] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166268#msg1166268 date=1327594515] Dickie V- you are in way over your head. You have about five different debates going at one time. Remember that this is about the 27 game district winning streak that Nederland currently has. You are bringing up all of these other years, which have no relevance to the debate at hand. If we stick to the facts, it suggests that Nederland would still have their win streak alive. [/quote] It is VERY relevant, because some of you act as if you have forgotten what Boutte has done here! NO...Nederland would not have won 27 games in a row had he still been at Ozen...NO WAY.. 8) [/quote] According to the facts presented here today, there is no evidence suggesting that Nederland's 27 game winning streak would not be what it is today regardless if Boutte was the coach or not. In the past 2 seasons during this streak, Ozen has not had the talents of: K. Perkins Keenan Young Brandon Chappel Willie Jefferson DeCarlos Franks Since Ozen has been 'down' over the past two season, like they were in 2004, Nederland would still have a 27 game district winning streak. I am not disregarding what Boutte did during his time, it was amazing. Nobody on this thread has said differently. But during his ONE down year, VIDOR swept them 3-0. For the 4th time, the kind of talent Ozen has now was just the same in 2004, when Coach E's team went 3-0 against Boutte. The same would happen with this Ozen team. [/quote] There is nothing factual about this statement other than there not being any "marquee" type players..Coach E's Vidor team was SECOND PLACE BEHIND OZEN IN THE STANDINGS TOO in 2004...Why is that FACT so hard for you to digest...COACH E's Vidor team LOST IN ROUND TWO OF THE PLAYOFFS...OZEN WENT TO THE REGIONALS AND LOST TO EVENTUAL CHAMPION HOUSTON JONES IN A "DOWN YEAR"...REPEAT...NEDERLAND WOULD NOT HAVE WON 27 GAMES IN A ROW IN DISTRICT IF ANDRE BOUTTE WAS STILL COACHING AT OZEN....Thats just it. Case closed...(because I am tired of talking about it!) 8) [/quote] Yes Ozen went further in the playoffs and yes they won district that year but they won district because they beat everyone else expect vidor (i think). Yes Vidor lost other games but the fact is that every time Boutte lined up against English he lost. That is a fact that you can't deny DV. [/quote] 3 wins out of more than 25....Richard Hamilton (Florida St.) has beaten Coach K this year...should we give Coach Hamilton the nod for Coach of the Year? Makes no sense, huh? EXACTLY[/quote] College and High school are two different things man. To compare them like there the same thing is just showing your ignorance.  8) [/quote] No ignorance here...That is why I am walking away from this one...have a great day. [quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166388#msg1166388 date=1327604457] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166381#msg1166381 date=1327604111] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166379#msg1166379 date=1327604003] Lincoln program EXTREMELY well established prior to his arrival. [/quote] So was Hardin Jefferson before Sutherland got there...your point? 8) [/quote]   Nobody claiming Sutherland to be the Messiah  The point is a lot of what happened at Lincoln was well established prior to arrival [/quote] How is all of that tradition working out for them now? I mean its STILL Port Arthur, right? They should be able to just walk on the floor and get a "W", no matter WHO is coaching them, right? What have they done since then? (except for 1999, when another great coach (Gamble) stepped back in and they went to state....again)

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166379" timestamp="1327604003"] Lincoln program EXTREMELY well established prior to his arrival. [/quote] So was Hardin Jefferson before Sutherland got there...your point? 8)

[quote name="vp32" post="1166370" timestamp="1327603261"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166342#msg1166342 date=1327601200] [quote author=baseball25 link=topic=94873.msg1166331#msg1166331 date=1327600226] I am talking about the PG micheal young!! [/quote] That would be Mike Thomas.[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166305#msg1166305 date=1327598237] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166272#msg1166272 date=1327594851] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166268#msg1166268 date=1327594515] Dickie V- you are in way over your head. You have about five different debates going at one time. Remember that this is about the 27 game district winning streak that Nederland currently has. You are bringing up all of these other years, which have no relevance to the debate at hand. If we stick to the facts, it suggests that Nederland would still have their win streak alive. [/quote] It is VERY relevant, because some of you act as if you have forgotten what Boutte has done here! NO...Nederland would not have won 27 games in a row had he still been at Ozen...NO WAY.. 8) [/quote] According to the facts presented here today, there is no evidence suggesting that Nederland's 27 game winning streak would not be what it is today regardless if Boutte was the coach or not. In the past 2 seasons during this streak, Ozen has not had the talents of: K. Perkins Keenan Young Brandon Chappel Willie Jefferson DeCarlos Franks Since Ozen has been 'down' over the past two season, like they were in 2004, Nederland would still have a 27 game district winning streak. I am not disregarding what Boutte did during his time, it was amazing. Nobody on this thread has said differently. But during his ONE down year, VIDOR swept them 3-0. For the 4th time, the kind of talent Ozen has now was just the same in 2004, when Coach E's team went 3-0 against Boutte. The same would happen with this Ozen team. [/quote] There is nothing factual about this statement other than there not being any "marquee" type players..Coach E's Vidor team was SECOND PLACE BEHIND OZEN IN THE STANDINGS TOO in 2004...Why is that FACT so hard for you to digest...COACH E's Vidor team LOST IN ROUND TWO OF THE PLAYOFFS...OZEN WENT TO THE REGIONALS AND LOST TO EVENTUAL CHAMPION HOUSTON JONES IN A "DOWN YEAR"...REPEAT...NEDERLAND WOULD NOT HAVE WON 27 GAMES IN A ROW IN DISTRICT IF ANDRE BOUTTE WAS STILL COACHING AT OZEN....Thats just it. Case closed...(because I am tired of talking about it!) 8) [/quote] Yes Ozen went further in the playoffs and yes they won district that year but they won district because they beat everyone else expect vidor (i think). Yes Vidor lost other games but the fact is that every time Boutte lined up against English he lost. That is a fact that you can't deny DV. [/quote] 3 wins out of more than 25....Richard Hamilton (Florida St.) has beaten Coach K this year...should we give Coach Hamilton the nod for Coach of the Year? Makes no sense, huh? EXACTLY [quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166371#msg1166371 date=1327603461] I want to know what else it takes to be in Austin on a regular basis. I am developing a list as an inquiring mind. [/quote] Its not for everyone.....The game is to be sold, not told.... 8) [quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166374#msg1166374 date=1327603583] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166368#msg1166368 date=1327603174] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166366#msg1166366 date=1327603083] Okay, fine. Now let's finish what Speechless was alluding towards. [/quote] He's alluding toward having talent...which is a cop out, and is what you guys are trying to insinuate is the reason for Boutte's success over the years, and thats just not fair, nor is it accurate. [/quote] Talent levels have plenty to do with his success( or anybody else's for that matter) and you are insulting everyones intelligence to suggest otherwise.  If you are correct, then he would have had similar results at Bridge City?  I don't recall any amazing accomplishments at Kountze. [/quote] He spent 3 seasons at Kountze....are you kidding me? Was 22 and right out of college...He still won district though, since you guys think thats such a lofty accomplishment these days.... ::)...Took the Lincoln job, and WENT TO STATE....hmmmm...seems like a pattern here... 8)

Baytown Sterling vs. [b]PAM (-11)[/b] La Porte vs. [b]West Brook (-5)[/b] [b]Baytown Lee[/b] vs. Barbers Hill (-6) (-4) Dayton vs. [b]Galena Park[/b] [b](-8) Central[/b] vs. Livingston LCM vs. [b]Ozen (-6)[/b] PNG vs. [b]Nederland (-18)[/b] Vidor vs. [b]Lumberton (-9)[/b] [b](-6) Jasper[/b] vs. Lufkin Hudson Bridge City vs. [b]Silsbee (-33)[/b] [b](-19) Hardin-Jefferson[/b] vs. Hamshire-Fannett Orangefield vs. [b]WOS (-14)[/b] [b](-21) Coldspring[/b] vs. Shepherd [b](-4) Huffman[/b] vs. Tarkington Splendora vs. [b]Cleveland (-4)[/b] Anahuac vs. [b]Warren (-5)[/b] (-17) Buna vs. [b]Deweyville[/b] East Chambers vs. [b]Kountze (-14)[/b] (-16) Evadale vs. [b]West Hardin[/b] Zavalla vs. [b]West Sabine (-16)[/b]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166366" timestamp="1327603083"] Okay, fine. Now let's finish what Speechless was alluding towards. [/quote] He's alluding toward having talent...which is a cop out, and is what you guys are trying to insinuate is the reason for Boutte's success over the years, and thats just not fair, nor is it accurate.

[quote name="baddog" post="1166353" timestamp="1327601940"] ......and the 80s Celtics would mop the floor with today's team. Too bad they aren't around. How about the streak of the 50s-60s Celtics? Keep it going Dogs. Don't listen to the naysayers. When people have to reach in their hip pocket to produce a team that could beat you, you know you are doing it right. [/quote] I don't think you guys have your reading glasses on here! 8)...I have been saying all along that Coach English has done a magnificent job there...That THIS Ozen team in 2012 is more talented from top to bottom than Nederland, and so is Central...Which FURTHER makes this run even MORE impressive..I have said this a THOUSAND TIMES...I am not talking about PAST teams, I am speaking on ONE FACTOR...IF the head coach at OZEN remained the same as it was when the school opened, NEDERLAND WOULD NOT HAVE ANY 5 GAME DISTRICT WIN STREAK, let alone a 27 game streak...THATS JUST WHAT IT IS, GUYS.

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166347" timestamp="1327601461"] I presented facts all morning long, yet you continue to ignore them-FACT! [/quote] What facts? 9 State appearances, 3 titles, 17 district titles, 12 regional tourney appearances, .085 winning percentage....Men lie, women lie, NUMBERS DON'T... 8) [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166354#msg1166354 date=1327601999] WHY ARE U SCREAMING AT ME?? U don't win debates by trying to bully Ur opposition. Since you're done with me, how about finish your conversation with Speechless? [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166342#msg1166342 date=1327601200] [quote author=baseball25 link=topic=94873.msg1166331#msg1166331 date=1327600226] I am talking about the PG micheal young!! [/quote] That would be Mike Thomas.[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166305#msg1166305 date=1327598237] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166272#msg1166272 date=1327594851] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166268#msg1166268 date=1327594515] Dickie V- you are in way over your head. You have about five different debates going at one time. Remember that this is about the 27 game district winning streak that Nederland currently has. You are bringing up all of these other years, which have no relevance to the debate at hand. If we stick to the facts, it suggests that Nederland would still have their win streak alive. [/quote] It is VERY relevant, because some of you act as if you have forgotten what Boutte has done here! NO...Nederland would not have won 27 games in a row had he still been at Ozen...NO WAY.. 8) [/quote] According to the facts presented here today, there is no evidence suggesting that Nederland's 27 game winning streak would not be what it is today regardless if Boutte was the coach or not. In the past 2 seasons during this streak, Ozen has not had the talents of: K. Perkins Keenan Young Brandon Chappel Willie Jefferson DeCarlos Franks Since Ozen has been 'down' over the past two season, like they were in 2004, Nederland would still have a 27 game district winning streak. I am not disregarding what Boutte did during his time, it was amazing. Nobody on this thread has said differently. But during his ONE down year, VIDOR swept them 3-0. For the 4th time, the kind of talent Ozen has now was just the same in 2004, when Coach E's team went 3-0 against Boutte. The same would happen with this Ozen team. [/quote] There is nothing factual about this statement other than there not being any "marquee" type players..Coach E's Vidor team was SECOND PLACE BEHIND OZEN IN THE STANDINGS TOO in 2004...Why is that FACT so hard for you to digest...COACH E's Vidor team LOST IN ROUND TWO OF THE PLAYOFFS...OZEN WENT TO THE REGIONALS AND LOST TO EVENTUAL CHAMPION HOUSTON JONES IN A "DOWN YEAR"...REPEAT...NEDERLAND WOULD NOT HAVE WON 27 GAMES IN A ROW IN DISTRICT IF ANDRE BOUTTE WAS STILL COACHING AT OZEN....Thats just it. Case closed...(because I am tired of talking about it!) 8) [/quote] [/quote] Not screaming...typing in BOLD so maybe you will understand it better!! :D

[quote name="stevenash" post="1165899" timestamp="1327522144"] [quote author=diego cruz link=topic=94857.msg1165669#msg1165669 date=1327497346] introductions are fine,but the teams that have the bench player on the court doing the cheerleader jumps,spin,twist,salute, patty cake hand slap routines with starters are taking it to far. [/quote] What do you think of the "pat downs" that take place on introductions? [/quote] I think they are very entertaining and wish I would have thought of it as a high school player, although I KNOW my dad would have had NO PARTS of any foolishness like that when I played for him!! I can hear him now...."Save that crazy madness for the circus! We are here to play basketball, young people!" BLUEDOVE, can't you hear him saying that?  :D

[quote name="baseball25" post="1166331" timestamp="1327600226"] I am talking about the PG micheal young!! [/quote] That would be Mike Thomas.[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166305#msg1166305 date=1327598237] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166272#msg1166272 date=1327594851] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166268#msg1166268 date=1327594515] Dickie V- you are in way over your head. You have about five different debates going at one time. Remember that this is about the 27 game district winning streak that Nederland currently has. You are bringing up all of these other years, which have no relevance to the debate at hand. If we stick to the facts, it suggests that Nederland would still have their win streak alive. [/quote] It is VERY relevant, because some of you act as if you have forgotten what Boutte has done here! NO...Nederland would not have won 27 games in a row had he still been at Ozen...NO WAY.. 8) [/quote] According to the facts presented here today, there is no evidence suggesting that Nederland's 27 game winning streak would not be what it is today regardless if Boutte was the coach or not. In the past 2 seasons during this streak, Ozen has not had the talents of: K. Perkins Keenan Young Brandon Chappel Willie Jefferson DeCarlos Franks Since Ozen has been 'down' over the past two season, like they were in 2004, Nederland would still have a 27 game district winning streak. I am not disregarding what Boutte did during his time, it was amazing. Nobody on this thread has said differently. But during his ONE down year, VIDOR swept them 3-0. For the 4th time, the kind of talent Ozen has now was just the same in 2004, when Coach E's team went 3-0 against Boutte. The same would happen with this Ozen team. [/quote] There is nothing factual about this statement other than there not being any "marquee" type players..Coach E's Vidor team was SECOND PLACE BEHIND OZEN IN THE STANDINGS TOO in 2004...Why is that FACT so hard for you to digest...COACH E's Vidor team LOST IN ROUND TWO OF THE PLAYOFFS...OZEN WENT TO THE REGIONALS AND LOST TO EVENTUAL CHAMPION HOUSTON JONES IN A "DOWN YEAR"...REPEAT...NEDERLAND WOULD NOT HAVE WON 27 GAMES IN A ROW IN DISTRICT IF ANDRE BOUTTE WAS STILL COACHING AT OZEN....Thats just it. Case closed...(because I am tired of talking about it!) 8)

::) ::) Really?

[quote name="speechless" post="1166281" timestamp="1327595682"] Player development?  What type of developing was done?  Where did these players get developed?  I mean....they weren't born 16 years old? [/quote] Simply keeping the gym doors open year around and working with the kids when its time....teaching basketball, along with life lessons beyond basketball....what are you getting at? whats your point?

[quote name="speechless" post="1166276" timestamp="1327595132"] Ozen was "built"?  Explain...how?  What is required to "build" an elite program? [/quote] Player DEVELOPMENT, and teaching a group of youngsters to embrace the total team concept and the importance of fundamentals, while emphasizing the value of hard work...DONE.

[quote name="speechless" post="1166271" timestamp="1327594790"] answer my question: Why was Ozen a regular at the state tournament and Nederland not? [/quote] Ozen was built into an elite program....there are not very many around who can do it like that...answer.

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166268" timestamp="1327594515"] Dickie V- you are in way over your head. You have about five different debates going at one time. Remember that this is about the 27 game district winning streak that Nederland currently has. You are bringing up all of these other years, which have no relevance to the debate at hand. If we stick to the facts, it suggests that Nederland would still have their win streak alive. [/quote] It is VERY relevant, because some of you act as if you have forgotten what Boutte has done here! NO...Nederland would not have won 27 games in a row had he still been at Ozen...NO WAY.. 8) [quote author=baddog link=topic=94873.msg1166270#msg1166270 date=1327594775] Good road win against VIDOR.....Ned!!!! 27 and counting. Some people can't handle it!!! [/quote] Yes it was!! LOL ;D

[quote name="sleepy" post="1166265" timestamp="1327594189"] Both are great coaches and I don't think either would x and o either to death.  Boutte does not have the experience of coaching kids as weak as English has had in past years so who knows what he would do with those type of kids. [/quote] Great point...BUT...PA Lincoln 1993 had no player taller than 6'2" and was a FT away from winning the state title in Austin...They were in no way a dominant squad, but were well coached...AND WENT TO THE STATE TITLE GAME...That should speak volumes as well...But in most eyes here, going to state was a "right of passage" at Lincoln..and it was not...

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166254" timestamp="1327593375"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166251#msg1166251 date=1327593164] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=94873.msg1166246#msg1166246 date=1327592704] Dang! Where I'm from those are strong statements. Boutte needs to come out of retirement for a year or two ;D [/quote] Then it will be some OTHER reason if he does and runs this area....again! 8)....He likes his cush office and polo shirts and slacks too much to give it up now!! ;D...BUT...You never know... ;) [/quote] I commend you for your loyalty and admiration.  But a dose of common sense/reality would be a nice addition.  Dickie, you are the one who insisted that somebody else try to look at this without bias.  You are way too close to this situation to make any unbiased evaluations [/quote] You may be correct, steve...but how can you argue with the numbers? I may BE too close to evaluate this without bias...No argument from me on that. 8)...I simply don't see whats so hard to see WHY Ozen is a "different" program than what it used to be, just a few years ago.. [quote author=team first link=topic=94873.msg1166259#msg1166259 date=1327593687] Not a betting man, I work to hard for my money. But no one can convince me other wise that ozen had way more talent than vidor. And there was only one ot game. Vidor lost 3 games in district, and ozen lost 2. All I know is when they faced each other with close talent, English won all 3 [/quote] OK, and in 2007? what about 2006? and 2005? Come on, man...look at this through unbiased eyes for a second...I have ACKNOWLEDGED that Brian English can flat out coach...YOU have said that Boutte taking a team to Austin that was NOT VERY TALENTED and advancing to the title game was a "good job"... :o....Yet you say English would "x and o" Boutte to death....Based on what? Looks like you are not ready to give someone credit for accomplishing something because you think it was a "given" due to an abundance of talent...Thats just not the case.

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1166246" timestamp="1327592704"] Dang! Where I'm from those are strong statements. Boutte needs to come out of retirement for a year or two ;D [/quote] Then it will be some OTHER reason if he does and runs this area....again! 8)....He likes his cush office and polo shirts and slacks too much to give it up now!! ;D...BUT...You never know... ;)

[quote name="team first" post="1166245" timestamp="1327592445"] What Boutte did is 07, was a great job. Now back to 04, ozen was easily the better team in my opinion. George w was never going to byu, byu so him one game and said thanks but No thanks , Jake m, went d11, d1 told him tks but no tks. Ozen Ballard played at st marys, peanut b, played Lamar pa, same as George, and then Joe lamb went juco. So to say vidor was better, one could easily look at lay-ups lines to see who had more talent. And central only beat vidor once that year. Equal talent english will x and o Boutte to death [/quote] You call what he did in 2007 a GREAT JOB? That was a dang MIRACLE!! :D...x and o to death? 3 wins out of 25+ contests head to head? are you a betting man, team first?  8)...Vidor lost THREE district games that year in 2004...came in 2nd in district...That Vidor team was very good, say what you will, they had some talent...I think this debate is not about Boutte vs English...It was supposed to be a question about WHY Nederland was able to get a choke hold on district 20-4A the way that they have...If Boutte is still at Ozen, that doesn't happen...Thats just it.  8)

[quote name="speechless" post="1166240" timestamp="1327592030"] So you are telling me if you took all the raw, uncoached talent in Beaumont and put it up against Nederland....Nederland would have the advantage? Speaking of diminishing accomplishments: [quote] Not taking away from it, because its a good thing, but its been done, with less fanfare on Fannett Rd. in Beaumont....[/quote] And at the same time....this proves the point....it was done with less fan fare because it was expected......it was not expected at Nederland. [/quote] Well, when you become a fixture at the state tournament and become nationally ranked, district titles kind of loses its luster... ::)

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166228" timestamp="1327591292"] Who cares what the score was? Have you ever seen any of Coach E's team's blow many people out? Just not his style. Could have scored 100 on Vidor Tuesday, but called off the 'Dawgs'! Last time I checked, a W is a W. Ok, fine. Not a lot of talent in Ozen the past 2 seasons. Say what you want, but are you seriously telling me that Nederland is overflowing with talent? Did you see Smith and Cunningham and the PG from last year when they were Freshman? And I NEVER downplayed what Boutte accomplished, it was phenomenal. But it doesn't mean that Nederland's win streak would still not be sitting at 27 today if Boutte were still the coach! You admitted that the 2004 team AND the past 2 Ozen team's were not full of talent. Vidor beat Ozen when they had 'less talent', and Ned also beat Ozen with 'less talent'. Now IF, IF a player like Perk was on those team's, I would say, you're right, Ned would not be on a 27 game win streak. But you admitted that Ozen was 'down' the past 2 seasons, and Coach E beat Ozen in 2004 3 times in one season with a 'down' team. So since Ozen has been 'down' the past 2 years, I don't think it would have made a difference if Boutte was the coach or not. [/quote] WAIT...Ozen is MORE talented, top to bottom, than Nederland RIGHT NOW..So is Central...which makes what Coach E is doing MORE impressive...I never said they had NO talent over there now, but what are they doing now in comparison to past years...There is a COMMON DENOMINATOR as to why Ozen is not the same...Isn't it obvious?

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166220" timestamp="1327590655"] I get what you are saying.  You can talk about "schemes" and "approaches" all day long but if the players arent there, the coach cannot, in my opinion, have the impact that you think they can.  You are telling me that Phil would have done what he did whether Red was coaching or not but are telling me 100% opposite in the Nederland/Ozen case.  When you began all of this, you requested that somebody TRY to be unbiased and for you.  I think in this case the ability to be unbiased is very understandably impossible for you.  Pat Knight is getting considerably more out of virtually the same team that Lamar had before he got here, but he hasnt made them a world beater  and I feel like Mr. Knights basketball pedigree is every bit as good as Mr. Bouttes.  NOBODY suggested basketball players at Ozen came out of the womb.  I made the analogy to golf success at Hj and you simply can't disprove said analogy. [/quote] Well.....wait a minute....You guys are all claiming that "Coach E is winning with NO TALENT"....So HE can do it and Boutte can't? Oh, but he has...Refer back to the 2007 season...OZEN PLAYED IN THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME...THAT team was no more talented than this 2012 outfit!! Nederland fans are excited about a winning streak that has been done for THREE TIMES AS LONG by Ozen and PA Lincoln...No big deal... EXPLAIN, please.... ::)...what makes it such an AMAZING ACCOMPLISHMENT NOW? Not taking away from it, because its a good thing, but its been done, with less fanfare on Fannett Rd. in Beaumont.... 8) [quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166222#msg1166222 date=1327590847] Ozen pulls from Beaumont Nederland pulls from Nederland Yes, Beaumont has an advantage regardless of how many schools there are... No one is trying to diminish anything Boutte has done.  Boutte is a HOF'er.  YOU are the one who created a hypothetical that, in fact, if anything, tried to diminish what Nederland is doing by playing the "what if" game. Some schools are blessed with more talent, more students, and better athletic set ups than others.  Is that the coach's fault?  No.  Is it an advantage to that coach?  Yes. Ozen has more natural God given ability, more students to choose from, and a better athletic set up than what Nederland has or had.  There ain't no changing that fact. [/quote] Blessed with more talent? Where is it now? Did it disappear? I respectfully disagree with that point....I was simply stating that the advantage that Nederland has now, is Coach E...I think that giving credit where its due.

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166209" timestamp="1327589620"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166097#msg1166097 date=1327552587] [quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166096#msg1166096 date=1327552339] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906] Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure. The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different. [/quote] [b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8) I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players. [/quote] [/quote] Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...George Williamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::) [/quote] Anyone would rather go deeper in the playoffs, no doubt. But playoffs are all about match ups, right? Vidor ran into a team who they didn't match up very well against, and still almost won. The fact remains that Vidor won all 3 meetings against Ozen that year, end of story. [/quote] NB, Vidor was not BLOWING Ozen out that year!! 2 of the 3 games went OT! AND OZEN WON THE DISTRICT, AND WENT FURTHER IN THE PLAYOFFS! How can you NOT acknowledge those facts?  :o [quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166212#msg1166212 date=1327589861] Are you seriously comparing Nederland to Ozen?  Seriously?  When it comes to available talent?  When it comes to developing talent?  Seriously? I don't care when Ozen opened...they were gonna have an advantage from the "get go" due to the number of people they were pulling from.  What is the population of Beaumont versus Nederland?  Not only that but, upon the opening of Ozen there was no fighting other sports.  English has not only developed his program but, had to battle things that a basketball coach at Ozen would never have to battle. Ask any basketball coach in the state what job they would have rather had the year Ozen opened....Nederland or Ozen and 99.9% of coaches would take the Ozen job. [/quote] Advantage? How about TODAY? Does that "advantage" still exist? More kids? Is Nederland not a 4A program, just like Ozen? That means student populations are similar.. ::)...Listen, I THINK COACH ENGLISH IS A FANTASTIC COACH....HE HAS DONE A PHENOMENAL JOB IN NEDERLAND...You guys cannot continue to downplay what Boutte accomplished because you guys THINK that Ozen was overflowing with kids that come out of the womb with a basketball in their hands!! Thats just not the case...And it should be OBVIOUS watching them the last two seasons.

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166204" timestamp="1327589036"] Pt. Arthur Lincoln was going to continue to do relatively well if they had hired someone other than Boutte as the next coach.  And yes, when I say basketball factory, I am referring to where that particular sport has the highest degree of interest from within the student body.  Definitely a fact at both Lincoln and Ozen.  Hardin Jefferson won mutliple state championships in golf and with a different coach most of the time.  They excelled because the kids in that area grew up on a golf course thus making their environment conducive to golf success just as the Lincoln/Ozen environments lend themselves to basketball success. With all due respect to Coach Boutte, I am very confident that the Nederland record last year and this year would be unchanged if Mr. Boutte was the Ozen coach.  I will ask you ONE MORE TIME- Would Phil Jacksons success have been lessened if Red Auerbach had hung around and coached longer? [/quote] Steve, thats quite possible, but does the fact that they MAY have had success with any other coach diminish what Boutte DID do at Lincoln? As far as Nederland being dominant in 20-4A if Boutte stayed...I have to STRONGLY yet, respectfully disagree with you...You cannot tell me that the Ozen program would have slipped as far as it has with Boutte at the helm! You don't believe that, do you? That Ozen team would look TOTALLY different...Not speaking as much as faces, but schemes and know how on the floor...Come on, you HAVE to know that....To answer your question, I do NOT think Red Auerbach's presence would have affected Phil Jackson's success, but we are talking about PROS...apples and bananas!!  8)....I DO know that Andre Boutte on the Ozen sideline would have affected Nederlands success over the last 2-3 years.. ;)....27 district wins in a row? not a chance...

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166197" timestamp="1327588436"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166168#msg1166168 date=1327585722] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166129#msg1166129 date=1327577200] Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte, if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program would continue to flourish. [/quote] You are correct, we will never know the answer to those questions. I DO know that there is a VERY short list of coaches that could do what Brian English has done at Vidor, and Nederland, and an even SHORTER list that could duplicate what Boutte has done. Stevenash, the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES....No one as close as HOUSTON knew anything about Ozen prior to the 2000 school year, and a year later we were 36-0, Class 4A State Champions.  How can people continue to downplay THAT? These are the FACTS.  Coach K is an incredible coach, and Duke is the standard because of continued success on the court by winning TITLES.  Syracuse was always a respected program, but until they won a title in 2003, they were not really considered to be ELITE. Ozen was an ELITE program when Boutte was there...not so much now...Nederland has the best coach on the sideline every contest in 20-4A now, by far...Nederland is not an ELITE program...They are very good, and yes building takes time...But [b]one coach took a new program in year THREE to the region 3 tournament,[/b] and the next year was nationally ranked and went undefeated winning a state title, and in the next 5 years played in 3 more state championship games...How is THAT not the standard of excellence in SE Texas? Because people feel we had "talent"? Thats not fair...we had an NBA bound player, yes we did...and THREE Division 1 players in 10 years...TALENT? I say an ELITE PROGRAM was built....once again, how is that NOT the standard in SE Texas? [/quote] Interesting! Didn't Coach E take Nederland to the Regional Tourney in year 4 after taking over the worst team in 20-4A for 4-5 years? Now he has lost that entire team, which had 0 NBA players on it BTW, and they haven't missed a beat this year. Ned has a very young team, and COULD make it back to the Region 3 Tourney this year. With 4 returning starters next year, it could be the year Ned earns a trip to Austin! I guess that will be a good gauge for this conversation. I was taught that when you dream, dream big! And it's obvious that Coach E feels the same... [/quote] OK..its obvious you're missing me all the way around here....I NEVER SAID WHAT COACH E WAS DOING WAS NOT GREAT....He is definitely getting it done...NO QUESTION.  I AM saying, however....In Year FOUR, Boutte went 36-0 winning a state title...Perk was DEVELOPED into an NBA talent, he did not come to us that way. Yes Coach E went to the regional tourney in year 4 after taking over that program...OZEN DID NOT EXIST, AND WENT TO AUSTIN AND WON IT IN YEAR 4...How are you missing THAT point?