Dick Vitale

[quote name="speechless" post="1166193" timestamp="1327588320"] [quote]They were when Coach K arrived...Buna was good back in the day too...are they considered great still today in your estimation?[/quote] So Buna being good 60 years ago is the same as Duke being good 2 years before Coach K arrived? Also impossible to compare high school and college when one can choose their players and the other cannot. [quote]You missed my point attempting to find holes...please re-read my statement and the ones leading up to it..HJ was just an example.[/quote] How did I miss your point?  I am not trying to find holes.  You said Todd was the reason HJ has stayed good since Breithaupt left which is partially true.  I simply asked what about the other four coaches that were there in between the two? [/quote] My point about HJ was that it was NOT a "basketball factory"...had nothing to do with the coaches in between, I was referring to the beginning of the prominance of the program to the present...thats all... Talking about Duke, I was making parallels to building a program to championship status...I understand the differences, but program building is universal.

[quote name="speechless" post="1166188" timestamp="1327587485"] [quote]the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES.[/quote] Coach K took over Duke in 1980 Duke had been to the Final Four just two years prior in 1978 and 3 times prior to that year....hardly a bottom feeder [/quote] They were when Coach K arrived...Buna was good back in the day too...are they considered great still today in your estimation? [quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166190#msg1166190 date=1327587637] [quote]..How did Hardin Jefferson do from Brietaupt to Sutherland? THEY DID NOT MISS A BEAT...Todd is the reason for that...Do you consider HJ to be a "basketball factory"?[/quote] HJ had four other head coaches between Breithaupt and Sutherland.  None of those coaches had anything to do with it? [/quote] You missed my point attempting to find holes...please re-read my statement and the ones leading up to it..HJ was just an example. [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166189#msg1166189 date=1327587626] Again, DV, re-read my last point. I said, regardless of what you believe...I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I simply corrected some false statements that you made about that Vidor team in an objective manner. You can subjectively state your opinion on who was more talented. Take a poll about Vidor having more basketball talent than Ozen, and I think we know the results. Again, what happened to all that 'talent' Vidor had? Are they currently in a 'down' year/period? Boutte had a great system, just like English does. To claim that Boutte's system was better is asinine, bc we are comparing apples to oranges. [/quote] The proof is in the numbers, man..I never said his SYSTEM was better, I said his body of work was not comaparable to his AT THIS POINT...I have also ACKNOWLEDGED that Brian built Vidor to what it was..no question about it..Whats the argument about? I have agreed with you on several points...Just check the numbers...Thats all I ask.

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166178" timestamp="1327586738"] Dickie- Are you unwilling to acknowledge (and it is a fact whether you are willing or not) that Mr. Boutte coached at virtual basketball factories?  Nobody knew anything about Ozen because it was a new school and once again, you have to admit that the attendance policies for Ozen were not what they were for the other schools in the area.  I am simply saying that there is nothing that Coach Boutte "knows" that Mr. English does not "know".  Funny that you never responded to my question where I asked if Red Auerbach had hung around and coached longer, would that have had any impact on Phil Jacksons success? (Because your are implying the very same on another level) [/quote] See, my response to that is.....HOW ARE THOSE "BASKETBALL FACTORIES" DOING NOW?? This clearly indicates that there was a common denominator in those so called "basketball factories"...Ozen is HARDLY that these days and Port Arthur is a SHELL of what it COULD be..How did Hardin Jefferson do from Brietaupt to Sutherland? THEY DID NOT MISS A BEAT...Todd is the reason for that...Do you consider HJ to be a "basketball factory"? Does that diminish what Sutherland has done there? NO and NO....Its an example of a PROGRAM...Nederland is very good, and English has built that program to levels that it has never seen...Why would you consider Ozen to be a "basketball factory"? Are they now? why?

It could be that way again.....it very well could...

Kids in Port Arthur used to play pick up ball AFTER PRACTICE in the parks at 503 and Gillum Circle....AFTER PRACTICE... :o :o..This was a recent as 1997...You just don't see that anymore! 8)

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166133" timestamp="1327581107"] Regardless of what you believe in this hypothetical, there is one fact that needs to be corrected, and I said this before. Coach English has NEVER coached a player who went on to play at the D1 level. So to say that his Vidor team was more 'talented' is plain silly. Another fact that needs to be known, is that George was a Junior that year, and Noah was the PG who was a Sophomore. So the team was not loaded with Senior talent as earlier stated. So Vidor started 3 Seniors, 1 JR, and 1 Soph that year. [/quote] NB-Dawg, VIDOR WAS MORE TALENTED THAN OZEN IN 2004...They were BIGGER...They were OLDER...Half of those kids on that 2004 Ozen team would have been JV players in MOST SEASONS...They went 29-7, WON THE DISTRICT OUTRIGHT, and went on to lose the eventual state champion in the regional tourney...I think THAT fact has to be THE ANSWER...You can't asterik Ozen's accomplishments by claiming "talent"....IT WAS COACHING...CLEARLY.

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166129" timestamp="1327577200"] Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte, if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program would continue to flourish. [/quote] You are correct, we will never know the answer to those questions. I DO know that there is a VERY short list of coaches that could do what Brian English has done at Vidor, and Nederland, and an even SHORTER list that could duplicate what Boutte has done. Stevenash, the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES....No one as close as HOUSTON knew anything about Ozen prior to the 2000 school year, and a year later we were 36-0, Class 4A State Champions.  How can people continue to downplay THAT? These are the FACTS.  Coach K is an incredible coach, and Duke is the standard because of continued success on the court by winning TITLES.  Syracuse was always a respected program, but until they won a title in 2003, they were not really considered to be ELITE. Ozen was an ELITE program when Boutte was there...not so much now...Nederland has the best coach on the sideline every contest in 20-4A now, by far...Nederland is not an ELITE program...They are very good, and yes building takes time...But one coach took a new program in year THREE to the region 3 tournament, and the next year was nationally ranked and went undefeated winning a state title, and in the next 5 years played in 3 more state championship games...How is THAT not the standard of excellence in SE Texas? Because people feel we had "talent"? Thats not fair...we had an NBA bound player, yes we did...and THREE Division 1 players in 10 years...TALENT? I say an ELITE PROGRAM was built....once again, how is that NOT the standard in SE Texas?

[quote name="team first" post="1166110" timestamp="1327555571"] The real question is who would win with equal talent? IMO English. His vidor team was not as good as Boutte ozen team, the year English swept him 3-0 [/quote] That is SO not true...George Williamson was headed to BYU, and Jake was a D-1 recruit as well...Ozen had a group of YOUNG UNDERCLASSMEN and ONE SENIOR who DID NOT START in 2004, which you guys love to base your argument...Vidor LOST to Central TWICE that season, so does that mean that Coach Rice was "better" than English? and once again...WHO WON THE DISTRICT AND ADVANCED FURTHER IN THE PLAYOFFS? OZEN....Your opinion matters and is respected..Men lie, women lie, NUMBERS DON'T....9 State Final Fours, 3 State Titles, 17 District Titles, 12 Regional tournament appearances.....Versus 2 district titles and 1 regional tourney appearance? Listen, its not even comparable...Coach English is the best coach in 4A/5A in the area, BY FAR, and one of the top 2 in the area period, with the other being Sutherland..You CANNOT hold his body of work up next to Boutte's because of 3 victories out of 25+ meetings...You just can't...its not fair to Coach English to do that. Now, Coach E is a personal friend of mine, and because of all this chatter, I am not going to get my VIP seat at the PNG game this Friday night, nor will he let me in his office for our pre game chat...THANKS A LOT GUYS!!  ;D ;D

[quote name="5 on 5" post="1166107" timestamp="1327554918"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166097#msg1166097 date=1327552587] [quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166096#msg1166096 date=1327552339] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906] Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure. The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different. [/quote] [b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8) I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players. [/quote][/quote]Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...GeorgeWilliamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7[b]...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::)[/b][/quote] I would rather have the PRESENT DAY 27-0 winning streak  ;) I [/quote] Thats outstanding...as long as winning a DISTRICT title is your ultimate goal... ::) ::).... ;)

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166102" timestamp="1327553033"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906] Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure. The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different. [/quote] Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8) [/quote] We all have our opinions Dickie V, and I gave you mine. Coach E grew the Vidor program from a 50 + year bottom dweller to a playoff team, and beat the best team in SETX 3 times in one year. They went to the playoffs 3 times during his 6 years there, and they haven't been back since. Nederland was also a bottom dweller every year but two (1987 & 1993) since 1955. Guess what? One of those years, coach English was a player for the Dawgs. It's funny how people commented over the past 2 years that the only reason Ned was any good was bc of PA transfers. Funny, bc when I look at the rosters over the past 8-10 years, there were 2-5 PA transfers every year, yet Ned was still no good. You bring up that the Vidor team was 'stacked' and full of Seniors?! I wonder why they were 'stacked'? Did the talent suddenly dissolve after English left? No! Bc it was never there! He developed the kids into 'talent'. Your second excuse is that team was full of Seniors. Is that the case this year for Nederland? NO! Ned has one senior who plays. Coach E has yet to coach a D1 player, yet he finds a way for his team's to win. He's proven he can beat Boutte even with a less talented team, so why should I believe that the streak would be broken if Boutte were still coaching at Ozen? [/quote] It's just common knowledge, man...Have you noticed that I RECOGNIZE the fact that English is an OUTSTANDING coach? I KNOW what he has done in Vidor and now at Nederland..MY point is that Boutte did the EXACT SAME THING AND THEN SOME!! Thats all...Ozen had to be BUILT! PA LINCOLN had to be MAINTAINED...He did BOTH...AND WON THE BIG ONE MULTIPLE TIMES...You cannot compare what English has accomplished to Boutte...Its not fair to COACH ENGLISH! Even when Vidor was CLEARLY BETTER in 2004 talentwise, and with a senior team, who WON THE DISTRICT? WHO ADVANCED FURTHER IN THE PLAYOFFS? IN A "DOWN YEAR"!  OZEN did....YES Brian revived a cellar dwellar in Vidor, because my guy can coach!! Boutte won a state title in year FOUR going 36-0, of a brand new school...Its a bit different....Doesn't change what English is doing at Nederland, it just puts it into perspective.

[quote name="5 on 5" post="1166098" timestamp="1327552671"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166095#msg1166095 date=1327552026] [quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166094#msg1166094 date=1327551746] Man, I guess since Nederland hasn't lost a district game in REALITY, some are now predicting how they might lose in THEORY.  :o. Fact of the matter is Nederland hasn't lost a district game in 27 outings. Yes, at some point they will lose, but it certainly wont be the end of Nederlands domination in 20 4A. Just curious, has any other 20 4A team/coach had such a record? [/quote] Uhhh YES!!...Ozen at one point had a 58 game district streak going from 1999-2004 and it was snapped by VIDOR IN 2004! ::)....27? Come on man, that was EASY for Ozen then!  8) [/quote] Yeah, it was easy for Ozen THEN  ;D :o. Things are a little different now  ;) [/quote] Well, the exact same coach that we are discussing did the SAME thing at PA Lincoln by winning consecutive district games from 1990-1997...NOT ONE DISTRICT LOSS....Coincidence? NOPE.... 8)

[quote name="5 on 5" post="1166096" timestamp="1327552339"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906] Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure. The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different. [/quote] [b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8) I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players. [/quote] [/quote] Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...George Williamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::)

[quote name="5 on 5" post="1166094" timestamp="1327551746"] Man, I guess since Nederland hasn't lost a district game in REALITY, some are now predicting how they might lose in THEORY.  :o. Fact of the matter is Nederland hasn't lost a district game in 27 outings. Yes, at some point they will lose, but it certainly wont be the end of Nederlands domination in 20 4A. Just curious, has any other 20 4A team/coach had such a record? [/quote] Uhhh YES!!...Ozen at one point had a 58 game district streak going from 1999-2004 and it was snapped by VIDOR IN 2004! ::)....27? Come on man, that was EASY for Ozen then!  8)

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166089" timestamp="1327550906"] Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure. The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different. [/quote] Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)

Who did they do right by? No one, IMO...They made the community swallow the fact that their schools were all gone...Not a trace of either of them..Traditions all gone..So, again, who did they do right by? It was done due to a desegregation order by TEA...How did THAT workout? It divided the Port Arthur community, as opposed to bringing it together as it said it would...Yeah for a few weeks during the football playoffs the community rallied...when it was all over, it died again, just as quickly...Lincoln basketball WAS Port Arthur...Memorial is a SHELL of what it really could be.

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166072" timestamp="1327547250"] Sorry- but being to the top does not, in my opinion make you a better coach.  There are plenty of great coaches out there who have never been to the top only because the circumstances surrounding them make it impossible.  Please dont suggest that coaching at Ozen and Lincoln is not a substantially large advantage before you ever step on the floor.  Furthermore, I think Mr. English might have a couple of titles of his own if his players had included Kendrick Perkins and Steven Jackson.  I can appreciate the fact that "you were there" but that has nothing to do with an objective or (as you said) non biased comparison.  I think it would be very silly of me to suggest that if Red Auerbach had continued to coach, that somehow, Phil Jacksons accomplishments would not have been as significant.  And I will still bet you a dollar to a doughnut that if both coaches were thrown in to similar circumstances(particulary ones where things are less than favorable) they would have similar outcomes.  [/quote] OK, I can go with your last statement about them having similar outcomes, but let me pose this question....How big is that "advantage" now for Ozen and Port Arthur Memorial? There is a REASON for that....One other thing...Steven Jackson was a heck of talent coming into Lincoln in the fall of 1992..he had to be taught like any other kid, but he could play as a youngster...That was NOT the case with Kendrick..He HAD TO BE TAUGHT THE GAME...Work was put in with Perk, and he became who he was with COACHING...Talk about circumstances? Rashard Lewis played HS ball in Texas too (Alief Elsik)...NO titles, no appearances...what about a guy named Omar Sneed (Westbrook) No titles, no appearances...I could go on and on, but contrary to what most people think, you cant just roll the balls out and win state titles, even when you have perceived talent..They had to be coached, and they were. You believe Coach English could do it too? Maybe...maybe not...How do you gauge it? With what has already been accomplished...You think Coach K's accomplishments were lessened because he was at Duke? I mean Scott Drew (Baylor) can coach too, but he's never been to a final four...Because he's at Baylor? maybe...maybe not...But Duke used to be a doormat too...until they made that hire..Coach K reached the pinnacle multiple times...Baylor is ranked and playing well...would they do the same coaching at Lamar right now? I think Coach K would fare a bit better...Experience tells me that.

The Lincoln contingent was actually larger and louder...The tension was there from the jump and still is today! Port Arthur people have sent their kids to NEDERLAND, BEAUMONT and PNG because they REFUSED to allow their kids to go to Memorial....This was BEFORE Memorial even opened its doors in 2002 and it still happens today....YES, TODAY...I just think that taking a page from BISD would have been smart...Name the school James Gamble, make the new colors maroon and gold (for TJ) and call them the Bees still...Compromise would have been better than KILLING the Lincoln tradition outright..

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166051" timestamp="1327545471"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166043#msg1166043 date=1327544487] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1165817#msg1165817 date=1327515095] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=94873.msg1165814#msg1165814 date=1327514850] [quote author=DogFan3 link=topic=94873.msg1165790#msg1165790 date=1327510717] LOL in trouble??? really?? They always get fired up for bigger games!! [/quote]We will see. [/quote] ::) Yes we will! ;D 27 in a row, and still those in doubt, Love it! These kids thrive in big games, and they will continue doing so! [/quote] 27 in a row is a great feat...congratulations....Quick question, and please give me a non biased answer, NB-Dawg....would Nederland be on a 27 game winning streak if Boutte would have stayed at Ozen? Just think about it and TRY to be non-biased with your answer. [/quote] I noticed you suggested that he be non biased.  Would that apply to you as well?  While you may know plenty about Coach Boutte, I am highly suspicious you dont know nearly as much about Mr. English who is a very accomplished coach in his own right.  I will also assure you that Mr. English has done quite a bit when the gene pool was not that good, a circumstance that Boutte rarely, if ever, encountered.  I would like to pose this hypothetical question to you Dickie V just for grins.  If Mr. Boutte and Mr. English went somewhere to coach and both inherited a low level of talent but teams with virtually identical characteristics, do you have any legitimate reason to believe that either team would do better than 500 against the other? [/quote] Good question...However, I know Coach English very well...He can flat out coach and I know this...BUT, If you are talking about PROGRAM BUILDING, Boutte has proven what he can do and so has Coach English in his own right...People always THINK that his programs at Lincoln and Ozen were just "so talented"...He coached Steven Jackson in 94 and 95....and Kendrick Perkins from 2000-03...OK, what do you want him to do? He won state titles with both of them as he should have, but people forget...what about the 93 team he took to state with no player taller than 6'2? And again his best job IMO was the 2007 team that went to the state title game...That team had about as much "talent" as THIS YEARS TEAM...I am not biased about this, but I was THERE...I saw it all happen...Coach English is a FANTASTIC COACH, but you cannot put him on the same plateau with Boutte, no matter how you cut it...To answer your question, I think that English has done a lot with less, however unbeknowing to most, Andre Boutte has done MORE with less...State tourney trips and championships are not easy to come by...He's been to the final four NINE times winning THREE titles...Half of those trips had no player on the roster named Jackson or Perkins either, so the talent argument is null and void....Program building or even program MAINTAINING is no easy task...Its one thing to win, its another to win BIG. Its apples to oranges, because BOTH are great in their own right, but only ONE of them has been to the top.

[quote name="dogs1218" post="1166049" timestamp="1327545213"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166043#msg1166043 date=1327544487] [quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1165817#msg1165817 date=1327515095] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=94873.msg1165814#msg1165814 date=1327514850] [quote author=DogFan3 link=topic=94873.msg1165790#msg1165790 date=1327510717] LOL in trouble??? really?? They always get fired up for bigger games!! [/quote]We will see. [/quote] ::) Yes we will! ;D 27 in a row, and still those in doubt, Love it! These kids thrive in big games, and they will continue doing so! [/quote] 27 in a row is a great feat...congratulations....Quick question, and please give me a non biased answer, NB-Dawg....would Nederland be on a 27 game winning streak if Boutte would have stayed at Ozen? Just think about it and TRY to be non-biased with your answer. [/quote] Quite possibly.. But no offense to Ozen, they dont have the talent like they used to when he was coaching [/quote] Thats not entirely true...the 2007 team that he took to the state championship game was about like this team this year...They were not that big, they had a really good scoring guard in Kris Richards, and a servicable PG alongside him...a 6'4 post in Stephen Moten....nothing spectacular..District Champs, Region III champs..State Finalist...I will say this....THERE IS NO WAY THIS STREAK IS ANYWHERE NEAR 7 GAMES LET ALONE 27 IF BOUTTE WAS STILL AT OZEN...Not saying that Nederland would not have had success still, because I believe that they would have...playoff runs and all...but winning district like they have? NO WAY...

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1166045" timestamp="1327544793"] [quote author=no-look link=topic=94898.msg1166035#msg1166035 date=1327543478] Are they taught as much today in high school basketball as in the past? [/quote]We were taught this in junior high. [/quote] And reviewed it and drilled on it in high school too!! I wasn't there, but am willing to bet my RIGHT ARM that you were!! ;)

Yeah, but I would tend to think that in the last 30 years, Port Arthur was KNOWN for its basketball program at LINCOLN...IT WAS the community..Smart money would have been to stand on the Lincoln dynasty when they consolidated, especially since it was unwanted and FORCED on the community the way it was...don't you think?

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1165817" timestamp="1327515095"] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=94873.msg1165814#msg1165814 date=1327514850] [quote author=DogFan3 link=topic=94873.msg1165790#msg1165790 date=1327510717] LOL in trouble??? really?? They always get fired up for bigger games!! [/quote]We will see. [/quote] ::) Yes we will! ;D 27 in a row, and still those in doubt, Love it! These kids thrive in big games, and they will continue doing so! [/quote] 27 in a row is a great feat...congratulations....Quick question, and please give me a non biased answer, NB-Dawg....would Nederland be on a 27 game winning streak if Boutte would have stayed at Ozen? Just think about it and TRY to be non-biased with your answer.

Depends on where you are...Is it taught at Nederland? I would BET that it is...Is it taught ANYWHERE in BISD these days? I would BET that it is NOT.... :(.....WAS it taught before in Beaumont....You better know it!  ;).... You cannot depend on athletic ability to get it done on the boards...Its an essential skill for program success.

[quote name="ST413" post="1166003" timestamp="1327537985"] It was asked what is the difference between PA Memorial, Silsbee, HJ, and Yates. One thought that I didn't mention is school pride.  Silsbee and HJ have had success on the court for years and their alummni and towns take pride in that.  That is passed on to their children.  Some of the success stems from that pride and wanting to continue the success.  Lincoln and Hebert had built that in their programs.  Ozen started off at a level comparable to Hebert and quickly gained some of that pride.  Memorial didn't start off as strong and lost some of that from the start.  [/quote] There was a REASON why Ozen was able to piggy back off of Heberts success in the early years...They KEPT the school colors, and mascot the same!! EASY...They could have and should have done that in PA to begin with, but they were not as smart as the BISD brass to do so...It was even suggested at the time that they name the school James Gamble HS, and keep the colors purple and gold, and call the Bumblebees....THAT would have done the trick off the bat in 2002 for PA...TJ and SFA alums would have had to understand that this would have been the best move for the community at the time, and followed Beaumont's lead with Ozen...BUT....hindsight is always 20/20...HOWEVER, it COULD get back to the way it was when it was Lincoln...It really could.

11 State Tournament appearances: 1981, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1999 7 State Championships: 1981, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1995 DYNASTY....It COULD be that way today...It very well COULD be...