Tommy John Surgery

[setxbaseballfan]

Powell (PNG), Haymon (BC), Adams (LCM), Womack (LCM)... Who makes the biggest impact?

[KFDM COOP]

Good question..

[MIF04]

I think either Adams or Haymon were released first (?) so that would give them some advantage. I know Haymon pitched some this summer against very high competition. I have seen both Haymon and Powell throw and they look pretty sharp for post-surgery/early in the season. Haven't seen either Adams or Womack in a while but reports are that Adams velocity has returned and is improved.

With that being said, I think the biggest impact would be Haymon, simply because he'll be BC's #2 (and he was very close to Angelle before he was hurt). If Powell is #2 for PNG then he'll be a big impact. Stone may use him to close and that makes him very important. As far as Adams and Womack, that will depend on who Griff uses when. I am guessing Dugas is the #2 and, if so, that will lessen Adams and Womack's pitching impact....but that can always change.

[MIF04]

Actually a very thougtful and provocative question. Without taking sides, think about this:

a. Are pitchers being over-used more today/throwing more breaking pitches, etc.?

b. Are the diagnostic tools better today; therefore, it is more easily detectable (or, put another way -- was it missed a lot?)?

c. Plus, until the actual Tommy John ahd the first surgery, you really didn't have a cure and you certainly didn't do surgery as the ligatments frayed.

On the other hand, maybe the procedure is so accepted now that more and more doctors send their kids to college 'over prescribing' the need for surgery.

I do know that, in the case of 3 of the kids listed above, they needed the surgery or their career would have been over before it started.

[Guest Orangeboy]

Haymon

[retiredoldcoach]

The "rat" is over use at an early age. At least five of the six (and soon to be six of the seven) local high school kids that have had TJ surgery had elbow trouble prior to entering the ninth grade. There were two others that did as well but made it through high school only to have the surgery after graduation.

There should be a pitch limit in little league of about 50. The outcome of a little league game is irrelevant in the long run.

There should be a pitch limit in select ball of about 75. The outcome of a selcet game is irrelevant in the long run. Except to the coach that gets a bonus if they win. The bonus provider is at fault as well.

The first time a kid should start throw up around a hundred pitches should be about he time he gets his drivers license, and even then it should be limited to the school season and not year round. Summer and fall games should be a workout to develop the pitcher.

[MIF04]

Why not limit # of pitches in HS game as well?

And who gets a bonus if they win? I want that job!!!!

[retiredoldcoach]

HS coaches (that remain HS coaches) do put a limit on pitches. They increase the pitch count limit as the season progresses.

Approximate numbers I have witnessed over the years:

20-30 pitches in pens and squads October, November, December

30-35 pitches in pens and squads January

35-40 pitches in pens and scrimmages in February

50-65 pitches in early season outings (some go longer here)

80-90 pitches in midseason

100-120 pitches in district and post season

Some kids can throw even more. The ones that will continue their career after high school will normally be held to under that 120 mark. (unless six or eight additional pitches can get those last two outs in the seventh)

Numerous times in the golden triangle over the last five decades I have witnessed kids throw 160+ pitches in a high school game. None of the coaches of those players were 1) succesful 2) around very long.

You will rarley see one go over 140 these days, but 110's, 120's, 130's is not unusual after arms in shape late in the season.

Summer and fall coaches know that these kids are pushed hard during the school year, therefore they should also have a plan to keep these kids injury free the rest of the year. This plan in my opinion should be to only throw these kids during the offseason a few pitches each outing. It should be, in my opinion, just a workout with a pitch count.

[MIF04]

I think pitch count is part of the solution....except that having a pitch count in game 1 of a tourney on Thursday with another outing on Saturday and closing out a game in the finals is just as bad.

And it is awful hard to 'overly limit' a kid in the summer when he's throwing in front of 40-50 college scouts and the MLB Scouting Bureau. I understand the concept in local HS/Connie Mack (which over here is basically goofing off/glorified pens and BP) but summer ball has evolved (right or wrong) into the #1 way kids get seen/recruited/drafted.

Again, another topic for another thread.

[MIF04]

I'd say it is a combination of 3 things:

1. Over use

2. Too quick with knife (in some cases)

3. Better medical technology to diagnose the problem

[retiredoldcoach]

My friend's son works for the Scouting Bureau. Through him I have learned that he certainly does not need 80 pitches every time out to get a good read on a prospect. From what I read it sounds as if some summer coaches may leave a guy in for he and other scouts to see while at the same time they are mumbling between themselves that they can't believe that guy is still out there for pitch number 95 in a summer game.

A few years back if he wanted to see if a kid could throw 90 in the sixth he went to watch them play a high school game. Now days he usually does not have to wait for that season to roll around because they will many times still be in the game in the sixth in a summer league game.

If the goal is exposure for these kids and not winning one of the 36 World Series Titles that are taking place in every state, why not throw 3 pitchers 2 innings and a closer in the 7th?

They have then kept the pitch count down and got four guys exposure. They did however just throw pitchers 1, 3, 4, and a closer which means their best was not out there the entire game, thus leaving them vulnerable for a loss. This is something that most summer coaches are not inerested in risking because (once again I don't think it is about exposure and improvement) it is usually about winning to the adults.

I do like the conversation here on this board. There are some very knowledgable baseball people on here. I think it is obvious where my view point of these topics originates from. It might not always be well received but these boards are for opinions. Mine will not always be the most popular I am sure. Over and out young fellas. We shall visit again another day.

[LCMBASEBALL]

"If the goal is exposure for these kids and not winning one of the 36 World Series Titles that are taking place in every state, why not throw 3 pitchers 2 innings and a closer in the 7th?

They have then kept the pitch count down and got four guys exposure. They did however just throw pitchers 1, 3, 4, and a closer which means their best was not out there the entire game, thus leaving them vulnerable for a loss. This is something that most summer coaches are not inerested in risking because (once again I don't think it is about exposure and improvement) it is usually about winning to the adults."

Absolutely on the money "retiredoldcoach"! In summer league(select) I think that the dads should get involved and monitor pitch count and amount of rest between outings to keep their sons from being overworked. This stems from not having enough pitching on some of these teams to get through the tournament schedule (at least five games) and win the prized trophy!