Putin steamrolls Trump

[baddog]

3 minutes ago, Big girl said:

You need to go back and reread this thread.

Not…..

[PA98]

On 8/21/2025 at 8:47 AM, OlDawg said:

For better or worse, it's been ruled unconstitutional. They won't be displayed in public school classrooms unless appealed and overturned.

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Just what we wanted, right!?

[OlDawg]

29 minutes ago, PA98 said:

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Just what we wanted, right!?

Not really sure how I feel about this. I’ve always been one that believed family came first, parents were primary, and religion was best left to be taught by the parents and their belief group.

On the other hand, the moral lessons are sorely needed among our youth, and just seeing them—without even discussing formally—may give some pause to think more about how they treat others.

Similar to cell phones being taken away is making them have actual face-to-face interactions. Also a good thing to me.

I know at the La Porte town pep rally at the new stadium tonight, the School Board President led the entire crowd (probably 5.000 or so) in a prayer before the festivities. Everyone—even the smaller kids—were at least respectful and quiet. Even if they didn’t pray along. So, some schools still do keep those traditions alive.

[PA98]

8 hours ago, OlDawg said:

Not really sure how I feel about this. I’ve always been one that believed family came first, parents were primary, and religion was best left to be taught by the parents and their belief group.

On the other hand, the moral lessons are sorely needed among our youth, and just seeing them—without even discussing formally—may give some pause to think more about how they treat others.

Similar to cell phones being taken away is making them have actual face-to-face interactions. Also a good thing to me.

I know at the La Porte town pep rally at the new stadium tonight, the School Board President led the entire crowd (probably 5.000 or so) in a prayer before the festivities. Everyone—even the smaller kids—were at least respectful and quiet. Even if they didn’t pray along. So, some schools still do keep those traditions alive.

You're not sure how you feel about the First Amendment? 

Moral lessons are needed among the adults running this state, country, and the bigots that post here daily. 

[DCT]

On 8/24/2025 at 10:21 PM, baddog said:

Not…..

Not surprised.

[5GallonBucket]

It starts at home and sadly kids can’t pick their parents.….

parents want to blame everyone else but themselves.

[tvc184]

15 hours ago, OlDawg said:

Not really sure how I feel about this. I’ve always been one that believed family came first, parents were primary, and religion was best left to be taught by the parents and their belief group.

On the other hand, the moral lessons are sorely needed among our youth, and just seeing them—without even discussing formally—may give some pause to think more about how they treat others.

Similar to cell phones being taken away is making them have actual face-to-face interactions. Also a good thing to me.

I know at the La Porte town pep rally at the new stadium tonight, the School Board President led the entire crowd (probably 5.000 or so) in a prayer before the festivities. Everyone—even the smaller kids—were at least respectful and quiet. Even if they didn’t pray along. So, some schools still do keep those traditions alive.

The traditions have mostly been ruled unconstitutional.

 The Supreme Court doesn’t set statutory laws however. They can’t fine or jail a person for violating the Constitution. That is left to state and federal district judges or juries who can assess penalties in a lawsuit.

What that means is, until someone files in lawsuit, there is no harm. As soon as someone does then there might be a temporary restraining order soon, followed by an injunction, pending the outcome.

So when someone finally files with the court and the judge issues that restraining order or injunction and when he starts assessing a $1000 a day contempt of court fine to the school district if they continue, they will have to reevaluate their decision. 

[OlDawg]

5 hours ago, tvc184 said:

The traditions have mostly been ruled unconstitutional.

 The Supreme Court doesn’t set statutory laws however. They can’t fine or jail a person for violating the Constitution. That is left to state and federal district judges or juries who can assess penalties in a lawsuit.

What that means is, until someone files in lawsuit, there is no harm. As soon as someone does then there might be a temporary restraining order soon, followed by an injunction, pending the outcome.

So when someone finally files with the court and the judge issues that restraining order or injunction and when he starts assessing a $1000 a day contempt of court fine to the school district if they continue, they will have to reevaluate their decision. 

My tradition is that I don’t typically respond to a poster who—without actually knowing other posters—regularly throws around the ‘bigot’ and ‘racist’ cards just because they don’t agree with their viewpoint. That applies whether it’s directed at me or not.

In answer to your post…Yes. Well aware. However, a School Board member isn’t a public school employee and isn’t governed by the Establishment clause. Even an employee (like a coach) can pray—voluntarily—at an extracurricular activity. That has been found constitutional in Kennedy vs. Bremerton.

I don’t see Texas having a major issue with voluntary prayer before a high school sporting event in most locales. But, having the Ten Commandments (regardless of whether I think they should be followed or not) posted in classrooms is a different matter.

Some people (not you) have a very limited understanding of the Establishment Clause and the First Amendment. I would venture to guess that most couldn’t even name the rights included in the First Amendment. They only think of one. Two at most. Talk about the Establishment & Free Exercise Clauses and eyes glaze over.

[tvc184]

A couple of cases or issues come to mind.

A school board member is not an employee of a school but is a government official who makes laws just like a member of the city council, the state or US Congress. Those laws may be unconstitutional and although a government official can’t be sued directly, the school district can be. The official won’t be paying for the contempt of court out of his pocket but the school district that he represents might be.

In Kennedy, he was praying on school grounds but in a personal prayer after the game. The school district had the mistaken belief, which several districts do, that anytime a person prays while at work or on government grounds that it is a violation of the Constitution. It isn’t. The Supreme Court ruled that the prayer was private and Kennedy’s coaching duties for the school district had ended after the game. 

In a southeast Texas case (actually from the same district that Nederland and PNG were in as recently as 2022) that went to the Supreme Court, Santa Fe ISD v. Doe.

In SFISD the Supreme Court ruled that even student led prayer prior to a football game violated the Establishment Clause. The school district had no say so in the prayer. The students elected whether to have a prayer and voted on a student who was to give the prayer. Since no school employee was involved and in since the students had complete control and the district only allowed the opportunity to do student prayer, thought that it would pass a constitutional challenge.

It didn’t.

 If the students on their own wanted to pray, great. Student led prayer for the masses at a football stadium, who are free to leave or not attend if they don’t like it, had their rights violated according to the Supreme Court. 

As recently as two months ago in the Fifth Circuit Court in New Orleans, they unanimously ruled that Louisiana having basically the same law as Texas requiring the Ten Commandments, violated the Constitution. The Fifth Circuit has jurisdiction over Texas and only the Supreme Court can overturn the Fifth Circuit.

I am not endorsing the decisions but only stating them as I believe they were ruled. 

[OlDawg]

1 hour ago, tvc184 said:

A couple of cases or issues come to mind.

A school board member is not an employee of a school but is a government official who makes laws just like a member of the city council, the state or US Congress. Those laws may be unconstitutional and although a government official can’t be sued directly, the school district can be. The official won’t be paying for the contempt of court out of his pocket but the school district that he represents might be.

In Kennedy, he was praying on school grounds but in a personal prayer after the game. The school district had the mistaken belief, which several districts do, that anytime a person prays while at work or on government grounds that it is a violation of the Constitution. It isn’t. The Supreme Court ruled that the prayer was private and Kennedy’s coaching duties for the school district had ended after the game. 

In a southeast Texas case (actually from the same district that Nederland and PNG were in as recently as 2022) that went to the Supreme Court, Santa Fe ISD v. Doe.

In SFISD the Supreme Court ruled that even student led prayer prior to a football game violated the Establishment Clause. The school district had no say so in the prayer. The students elected whether to have a prayer and voted on a student who was to give the prayer. Since no school employee was involved and in since the students had complete control and the district only allowed the opportunity to do student prayer, thought that it would pass a constitutional challenge.

It didn’t.

 If the students on their own wanted to pray, great. Student led prayer for the masses at a football stadium, who are free to leave or not attend if they don’t like it, had their rights violated according to the Supreme Court. 

As recently as two months ago in the Fifth Circuit Court in New Orleans, they unanimously ruled that Louisiana having basically the same law as Texas requiring the Ten Commandments, violated the Constitution. The Fifth Circuit has jurisdiction over Texas and only the Supreme Court can overturn the Fifth Circuit.

I am not endorsing the decisions but only stating them as I believe they were ruled. 

Agree to your examples and thoughts. Someone can always sue about anything. I also do not endorse—or not—the SCOTUS decisions. I also think with Kennedy vs Bremerton, the standards changed. But, my take is the decisions are based more on if it’s felt the STUDENTS are being coerced in any way. That’s where the current line seems to be drawn. Regardless of who may be doing the perceived coercing. In addition, tradition appears to be taking a more prevalent position in rulings—although not uniform by the courts.

Some courts have ruled prayer before a school board meeting is okay. It’s a legislative meeting, and tradition protects prayer at such events. Other courts say no. It’s a mish-mash of rulings.

The rulings appear to be more to protect not yet legal age young folks. I believe Gorsuch explicitly referenced no kids being coerced in his majority opinion in Bremerton. (If I remember correctly.)

I do not think the Ten Commandments in the classroom will stand. Someone against it will pursue, and Paxton’s move will be negated.

I have said that I believe certain things are best left taught at home, or other more appropriate places. I want schools to focus on secular education of reading/‘righting’/‘rithmatic’. But, I wouldn’t be one to sue over the issue either way.

[Big girl]

On 8/27/2025 at 10:16 PM, OlDawg said:

Not really sure how I feel about this. I’ve always been one that believed family came first, parents were primary, and religion was best left to be taught by the parents and their belief group.

On the other hand, the moral lessons are sorely needed among our youth, and just seeing them—without even discussing formally—may give some pause to think more about how they treat others.

Similar to cell phones being taken away is making them have actual face-to-face interactions. Also a good thing to me.

I know at the La Porte town pep rally at the new stadium tonight, the School Board President led the entire crowd (probably 5.000 or so) in a prayer before the festivities. Everyone—even the smaller kids—were at least respectful and quiet. Even if they didn’t pray along. So, some schools still do keep those traditions alive.

But he didnt force anyone to listen.

[OlDawg]

48 minutes ago, Big girl said:

But he didnt force anyone to listen.

Correct. But, like @tvc184 and I have both said, all it takes is one disgruntled person to raise a stink, and it starts the wheel.

The Kennedy vs Bremerton case set new standards that are a little more lenient than some Lemon rules in the past. But, it’s still a hodge podge of rulings.

To me, the pregame prayer should be considered ‘enshrined by tradition’ like legislative meetings, and swearing on the Bible. It’s been going on for as long as probably anyone can remember. You have the honor guard with the flag procession/display, the National Anthem, and a prayer.

It would take a school district wanting to pay for the fight and hassle of a possible lawsuit—which is a shame that one person could do so much damage to something that’s almost ‘sacred.’

Again, that’s just me.

(Not sure how I got this so far away from your original thread topic. I’ll stop. Sorry!)

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, Big girl said:

But he didnt force anyone to listen.

The “you don’t have to listen” argument has been thrown out more than once.