Dick Vitale

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371134" timestamp="1360270138"] Sutherland is a great coach, but I am smart enough to understand he is NOT the Messiah.  I also understand that he  has no exclusive or secret knowledge that isnt available or obtainable in the overall coaching market.  [/quote] I agree with your take on Sutherland...I never said ANY of the above about either of these coaches as far as being the "Messiah" as you call it...But you giving excuses for Boutte's success are not going to fly with me because I KNOW better than that.

Would it be safe to mention that MOST 3A and below coaches are actually football coaches in disguise picking up an extra stipend check? So a really good coach SHOULD coach circles around most 3A opponents who are being coached by Offensive Coordinators from football? Not saying that this is the case here, but is it an accurate assessment of 3A and below coaching?

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371121" timestamp="1360269362"] I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor. [/quote] OK, but would you agree that Westbrook, Silsbee, and Central for example ALL had talented enough teams to win or even GO to state, but did not make it? It takes MORE than talent alone to win it all...Coaching plays a HUGE factor in winning big. Particularly at the 4A and 5A level...These guys REFUSE to acknowledge what was done by him was special over the years, by making the excuse of built in talent as if NO WORK was involved..THAT is what burns my hide about it! >:( [quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371122#msg1371122 date=1360269496] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833] [quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672] Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself. [/quote] Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself. [/quote] Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you? [/quote] He was at Kountze from 87-89...He did well there, just had not won state yet in HIS FIRST TWO YEARS OF COACHING, period...Right out of college, mind you...Come on! :o...However, went to Lincoln, went to state, won it all twice and NO ONE ELSE did it after he left...Gamble came out of retirement and went to Austin in 99....ANOTHER great coach...If it were Sutherland, you would be on here talking about what a MAGNIFICENT achievement it was....typical... ::)

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371117" timestamp="1360268985"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833] [quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672] Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself. [/quote] Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself. [/quote] Kind of like what English has done, huh?  Bringing two programs from doormat to competitive teams. [/quote] I have never doubted what English has done....I KNOW the guy can coach...What about bringing a program from NON EXISTING to WINNING STATE...(in 4 years, mind you)...Some want to lessen THAT accomplishment, and say it was due to talent....BS!

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371111" timestamp="1360268606"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108925.msg1371089#msg1371089 date=1360266995] On another note: Stevenash also knows the truth about pre-integration coaches vs. Post integration, but his "republican" beliefs REFUSE to allow him to admit what he knows is true... ;) [/quote] I fully understand what you are insinuating and if I were doing what you are doing, you would be screaming and yelling racism at the top of your lungs.  By the way, Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson, Bobby Knight, Rick Pitino, Bill Self, Jim Boeheim, Coach K, etc etc etc disprove what you are trying to contend. [/quote] The topic was about HIGH SCHOOL basketball coaches from THIS area, and who were the greatest ones of all time...There were MANY really good coaches from this area, but  the ones who are being deemed "great" from SE Texas in the early 60's got a pass not having to contend with the PVIL schools...THATS my point. Get it? ::) [quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108925.msg1371112#msg1371112 date=1360268649] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108925.msg1371099#msg1371099 date=1360267723] [quote author=DXTR link=topic=108925.msg1371095#msg1371095 date=1360267501] [quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=108925.msg1371058#msg1371058 date=1360265114] [quote author=LAZEEK link=topic=108925.msg1371032#msg1371032 date=1360262921] Sutherland is 619-111 in the midst of his 20th year That is rounding up to 31-6 on average [/quote]His record is likely amongst the highest winning %s in the state during that period of time if not THE highest. Would like to see a more impressive résumé based on pure numbers as you provided. The other coaches were impressive at 22-7/year. Sutherland is a man amongst boys in that category. [/quote]That puts Sutherland with 85% wins. Others are: Terry Culley (Silsbee)    828/257 (36yrs)    23-7 ave. season    76% Fred Williams (Hebert)    704/122 (28 yrs)    25-4 ave. season    85% James Gamble (Lincoln)  670/226 (34 yrs)    20-7 ave. season    75% Cotton Robinson(Buna)  537/98  (15 yrs)    22-7 ave. season    85% Jack Whitten(W. Sabine) 512/175 (24 yrs)  21-7 ave. season    75% all pretty impressive. [/quote] in 3A and below..... ::) ::) ::)....still very good, but in 3A and under.... ::) [/quote] So now, coaching credibility has school size attached to it? [/quote] No, not really...However, it was in 3A and under...That fact just needed to be mentioned... ;)

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371114" timestamp="1360268672"] Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself. [/quote] Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.

I was not referring to those two, but since you did, Did Culley win a 4A or 5A state title? Gamble did.... ::)

[quote name="Honest Abe" post="1371100" timestamp="1360267735"] Funny how you can be 99.9% sure about something earlier today only to be proven wrong, yet you get on here 10 minutes later acting like WE are a bunch of Dumb--- who don't have a clue about anything basketball related. Seems that more than just yourself actually KNOWS something about Bball or has an opinion about it. Do you really believe you are a basketball god or something? Come on man!! [/quote]\ I know what I know...Hate it or love, it is what it is....I grew up around PA Lincoln basketball, for obvious reasons, but I played in Houston...Heck we beat Lincoln by 20 that year, but we knew how good they were still. I had no idea PNG beat them, since it seemed so far fetched, but apparently they did...I am not perfect, but I know my sh--! Hate it or love, you have to respect it.... ;) [quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=108974.msg1371102#msg1371102 date=1360267913] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371096#msg1371096 date=1360267569] That Vidor team in 2004 had some really good SENIORS in that program, aside from the fact that English CAN coach...See unlike you, I acknowledge when guys can coach...You folks that really do not understand the game tend to think that since Vidor beat Ozen that year (and still did not win district) it makes English a better coach...Though he is good, the resumes are FAR from equal. [/quote]How many of Vidor's players went D1 that year? ZERO!!! The big kid played at a D2 school. McMurray maybe?? Hardly the caliber of talent Ozen had that year. Are you telling me Boutte would have some the same with the Vidor program AND the Nederland program?? I'll answer that one, no way!! ::) [/quote] So you are saying Boutte could NOT coach and English is better? I would say that 3 and FOREVER vs. Boutte says otherwise....Like I said, you folks in SE Texas REFUSE to give credit where it is due, and the reasons are sickening...

[quote name="DXTR" post="1371095" timestamp="1360267501"] [quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=108925.msg1371058#msg1371058 date=1360265114] [quote author=LAZEEK link=topic=108925.msg1371032#msg1371032 date=1360262921] Sutherland is 619-111 in the midst of his 20th year That is rounding up to 31-6 on average [/quote]His record is likely amongst the highest winning %s in the state during that period of time if not THE highest. Would like to see a more impressive résumé based on pure numbers as you provided. The other coaches were impressive at 22-7/year. Sutherland is a man amongst boys in that category. [/quote]That puts Sutherland with 85% wins. Others are: Terry Culley (Silsbee)    828/257 (36yrs)    23-7 ave. season    76% Fred Williams (Hebert)    704/122 (28 yrs)    25-4 ave. season    85% James Gamble (Lincoln)  670/226 (34 yrs)    20-7 ave. season    75% Cotton Robinson(Buna)  537/98  (15 yrs)    22-7 ave. season    85% Jack Whitten(W. Sabine) 512/175 (24 yrs)  21-7 ave. season    75% all pretty impressive. [/quote] in 3A and below..... ::) ::) ::)....still very good, but in 3A and under.... ::)

That Vidor team in 2004 had some really good SENIORS in that program, aside from the fact that English CAN coach...See unlike you, I acknowledge when guys can coach...You folks that really do not understand the game tend to think that since Vidor beat Ozen that year (and still did not win district) it makes English a better coach...Though he is good, the resumes are FAR from equal.

3-35 was sarcasm, but the THREE was my point...You people are delusional....very.

Man are you serious? Is Trent Johnson a better coach than Bill Self because they lost at TCU last night? LOOK AT THE RECORD vs. English!! It's like 35-3! You want to talk about being outcoached? That 2004 team was basically a JV team, and they went to the regional tourney and won the district OUTRIGHT! Thats not a GREAT coaching job? You people amaze me at your thought process when it comes to non-white coaches and teams....Contrary to what you folks think, we didn't just roll the balls out and win state! Those kids were COACHED.

On another note: Stevenash also knows the truth about pre-integration coaches vs. Post integration, but his "republican" beliefs REFUSE to allow him to admit what he knows is true... ;)

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371080" timestamp="1360266527"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108925.msg1371077#msg1371077 date=1360266175] [quote author=CATMAN link=topic=108925.msg1371028#msg1371028 date=1360262604] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108925.msg1371011#msg1371011 date=1360261100] Listen do you guys ACTUALLY think that Buna would have beaten Bmt. Hebert, or Houston Wheatley, or Lincoln back in the days when they were not allowed to play in the UIL? If you do, you are delusional. ::) Has NOTHING to do with my own personal beliefs about race, or how I feel about segregation, or how idiotic it was....So do not attempt to turn it into that...I just know that pre-integration, the "white" UIL wanted NO PART of those PVIL league teams. [/quote]What about Bill Krueger in his older years beat those pre-integration school in the state tour.  HIS RECORD WAS 1096 WINS 250 LOST  39 YEARS OFF COACHING. [/quote] Bill Kruger won ONE state title in 1989...Beat US in the regional to go to Austin, when I was a freshman...PRE-integration, Krueger was at Clear CREEK, and did well, but he will tell you himself how much better the Wheatley teams of the 60's and early 70's were than they were! It was not even CLOSE! [/quote] Once again, all of your "intergration and pre-integration assertions" have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on who was a good coach.  There are plenty of good coaches who never win a title and there are  some coaches who won a title that walked into a good situation. [/quote] So which category are you putting Sutherland in? How about Boutte? Side note: OZEN WAS A NEW HIGH SCHOOL WITHOUT A SENIOR CLASS WHEN BOUTTE ARRIVED.... ::)...you people.... ::) ::)

Vidor DID beat Ozen in 2004....Three times (once in a tourney)...Ozen STILL won the district [b]outright[/b], and advaced further than Vidor in the playoffs, with a VERY young squad....Would you care to talley up the total number of wins and losses during the Boutte era against English coached teams? I didn't think you would.... ::)..(its something like 3-35 vs. Boutte's teams) And if you think you could just roll the balls out at Ozen and win, you are SADLY mistaken...Kendrick Perkins was not always KENDRICK PERKINS...Remember when you SE Texans would call him soft, and overrated? I do..He had to be developed like any other player, but some of you seem to think he walked into our gym "Celtic ready"....SMH....That's where COACHING comes in... ::) ::)

[quote name="usedtobe" post="1371022" timestamp="1360262094"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108925.msg1371011#msg1371011 date=1360261100] Listen do you guys ACTUALLY think that Buna would have beaten Bmt. Hebert, or Houston Wheatley, or Lincoln back in the days when they were not allowed to play in the UIL? If you do, you are delusional. ::) Has NOTHING to do with my own personal beliefs about race, or how I feel about segregation, or how idiotic it was....So do not attempt to turn it into that...I just know that pre-integration, the "white" UIL wanted NO PART of those PVIL league teams. [/quote] DickieV, you know that I can't stand your braggadocio attitude and your know "everytning" attitude.  But trying to get by my personal shortcomings, I agree with your assessment about pre-integration basketball in the state of Texas.  There may have been an occasional win by the "all white team" but the vast majority of the wins would have been on the side of PVIL league. :) [/quote] You don't have to LIKE my attitude...Just respect the KNOWLEDGE!  ;) 8)

[quote name="CATMAN" post="1371028" timestamp="1360262604"] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108925.msg1371011#msg1371011 date=1360261100] Listen do you guys ACTUALLY think that Buna would have beaten Bmt. Hebert, or Houston Wheatley, or Lincoln back in the days when they were not allowed to play in the UIL? If you do, you are delusional. ::) Has NOTHING to do with my own personal beliefs about race, or how I feel about segregation, or how idiotic it was....So do not attempt to turn it into that...I just know that pre-integration, the "white" UIL wanted NO PART of those PVIL league teams. [/quote]What about Bill Krueger in his older years beat those pre-integration school in the state tour.  HIS RECORD WAS 1096 WINS 250 LOST  39 YEARS OFF COACHING. [/quote] Bill Kruger won ONE state title in 1989...Beat US in the regional to go to Austin, when I was a freshman...PRE-integration, Krueger was at Clear CREEK, and did well, but he will tell you himself how much better the Wheatley teams of the 60's and early 70's were than they were! It was not even CLOSE!

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371016" timestamp="1360261764"] And just what "truth" is it that you want me to admit? [/quote] If you don't know then do not worry about it...I think you full well know where Ozen would be had he stayed there.

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371009" timestamp="1360260960"] [quote author=ozensfinest link=topic=108974.msg1371007#msg1371007 date=1360260752] [quote author=BMTSoulja1 link=topic=108974.msg1370913#msg1370913 date=1360244401] [quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=108974.msg1370905#msg1370905 date=1360240831] [quote author=ozensfinest link=topic=108974.msg1370869#msg1370869 date=1360205580] Ok i have to put my two cents in this thread...the thing you fans don't understand is that teams like nederland central etc isn't that good and Ozen is still heads above the rest they just don't have the coach to show it I'm willing to bet money that if Bouttee was to take over again next season Ozen would be back running 20-4A a problem I've always had with local area fans is that they seem to have tunnel vision when it comes to their teams and lose sight of being realistic...Do you guys honestly think Nederland has a chance to make it out of Region 3? Do you guys honestly think that any team in 20-4A is state championship contender? Heck no not even close and it will show in the playoffs...stop trying to say the reason Ozen isn't dominating is because the talent is spread all over Beaumont because it has always  been that way WB has had studs and Central has had STUD its just that when it came down to who had the better PROGRAM it wasn't even close Ozen isn't the same program because of the guy who took over the program its that simple and the proofs in the pudding...Think about it when was the last time Ozen won district outright? Under bouttee...Ozen first lost in history to central was under who? Saveat are you starting to see a trend here? [/quote] You want some cheese with your whine  :'( :'( :'( [/quote] What the heck does signing D1 in football have to do with Ozen hoops?  You're losing credibility again.  Smh In the playoffs, a win is a win.  All teams are good.  I think a 4 typing playoff run ended by a loss to a Jones or a Yates would be the same as a 4 round push having beat a Jones or Yates in the second round.  Point being, it doesn't matter who you play, it's all about keep winning, which last years Ozen team did.  Don't let your hate for Saveat cause you to discredit those kid's accomplishments.  They did make it farther in the playoffs than Nederland AND Central with a subpar coach as you put it AND being a third place team... [/quote]I guess you missed my statement about me actually PLAYING FOR OZEN bball team and you said i barely knew about football and my rebuttal was I signed a D-1 scholarship to play FOOTBALL...I would like to hear your credentials in sports  :-\ as far as Ozen making it further than Nederland in the playoffs that is not considered an accomplishment to us Ozen fans who've watched the glory days at Ozen and the tradition that program was built upon...beating Nederland is supposed to be a sure thing when your playing for Ozen and it was until Saveat took over I don't see what you guys don't see here I don't dislike Saveat as a person he's just not fit for the job at Ozen and its been showing for 4 years now soulja your giving ozen credit for making it to regionals anything short of a state title appearance or championship is considered a failure at Ozen...but i see why you view that as an accomplishment since your a central fan you guys aren't used to a winning tradition on the hardwood [/quote] Do you belive Ozen would be undefeated at this point if Boutte was still the coach? [/quote] Do you? I know you know that answer to that one, but its not Todd Sutherland so you, Stevenash, will NEVER admit the truth here. ::)

Listen do you guys ACTUALLY think that Buna would have beaten Bmt. Hebert, or Houston Wheatley, or Lincoln back in the days when they were not allowed to play in the UIL? If you do, you are delusional. ::) Has NOTHING to do with my own personal beliefs about race, or how I feel about segregation, or how idiotic it was....So do not attempt to turn it into that...I just know that pre-integration, the "white" UIL wanted NO PART of those PVIL league teams. 

I stand corrected...The impossible actually DID happen... :-[...That was the year Kevin Thomas, Lincoln's best returning player, was kicked off the team for disciplinary reasons, and they did struggle some.  Went back to state the very next season and lost to Dallas Lincoln by a point in the State game, 46-45...Once again, I am not above admitting when I am wrong... 8)

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1370962" timestamp="1360254228"] [quote author=team first link=topic=108974.msg1370935#msg1370935 date=1360249604] [quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1370898#msg1370898 date=1360215625] PNG NEVER BEAT LINCOLN....EVER...Next question. [/quote] Wrong again dickie v, png beat lincoln in 92. [/quote] Holy Cow!!!!!!  Is it true?  Was Dickie V wrong?  Impossible!!!!!!! [/quote] 91-92, they were young, but still won district....They lost at LCM that year, not PNG...I will call and ask, but I am about 99% sure it was NOT PNG...

No offense, but PRE-integration titles should not even COUNT! If those teams had to play the old PVIL schools, they would HAVE no titles. Sorry, but that's just a fact.

PNG NEVER BEAT LINCOLN....EVER...Next question.

Stevenash don't start that about Ozen getting the best in Beaumont, because that was certainly NOT the case.  I will say this again: WESTBROOK AND CENTRAL HAVE ALWAYS HAD TALENT. And in some years MORE than we did at Ozen. This year Central has GREAT young talent, but the only way Nederland has ANY shot at beating them is the fact that Brian English is a much better coach than Central's coach...MUCH BETTER. With the right guy on the Central sideline, they blow that district away, UNDEFEATED. JUST like we did.... ;)