DEER IN SOUTHEAST TEXAS 13 INCH OR GREATER SPREAD

[tvc184]

[quote name="injun" post="750105" timestamp="1264563058"]
I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..[b][size=12pt]Let me make the choice...[/size][/b]
[/quote]

If that is an argument, I guess you want to make your own rules for everything. Let me make my own choice.

[injun]

[quote name="westend1" post="750120" timestamp="1264563829"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750105#msg750105 date=1264563058]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]

I guess that is what I don't understand.  i've killed tons of stuff with my bow as well. Haven't picked up a rifle since 1990.  I have no desire to shoot a skinny, 1 1/2 year old buck.  I somewhat understand that some still find pleasure in shooting little deer, but I don't.  So, from a personal perspective, I like the change.  And, if hunters will give it a chance, they should be able to shoot just as many deer as before within a couple of years, but they will be larger deer.  Why is that such a bad thing?   2 or 3 lost years, where you still might stumble across a legal deer, a spike or a doe.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.
[/quote]Where is it you hunt again????

[westend1]

[quote name="injun" post="750233" timestamp="1264594520"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750120#msg750120 date=1264563829]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750105#msg750105 date=1264563058]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]

I guess that is what I don't understand.  i've killed tons of stuff with my bow as well. Haven't picked up a rifle since 1990.  I have no desire to shoot a skinny, 1 1/2 year old buck.  I somewhat understand that some still find pleasure in shooting little deer, but I don't.  So, from a personal perspective, I like the change.  And, if hunters will give it a chance, they should be able to shoot just as many deer as before within a couple of years, but they will be larger deer.  Why is that such a bad thing?   2 or 3 lost years, where you still might stumble across a legal deer, a spike or a doe.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.
[/quote]Where is it you hunt again????
[/quote]

I hunt near Junction, now.  You would hate being on my lease.  We have far more restrictive rules than a 13" spread.  We only shoot bucks that are 5 year olds.  I haven't killed one in two years, but I did see a couple of really good bucks that I couldn't get a shot at. 

[643]

[quote name="injun" post="750105" timestamp="1264563058"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]Well shoot a cpl of Does then, besides some are smarter than most bucks...

[643]

[quote name="tvc184" post="750214" timestamp="1264570199"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750060#msg750060 date=1264560848]
You also might want to check with the local deer processing markets and ask them if this new law affected their buisnesses this year
[/quote]

My processor said that he was down about 30 or more deer from last year.
[/quote]Thats not bad, if you want bad check the Taxidermist log book....

[injun]

[quote name="643" post="750292" timestamp="1264603909"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750105#msg750105 date=1264563058]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]Well shoot a cpl of Does then, besides some are smarter than most bucks...
[/quote]I couldn't get vacation in Oct..was limited to hunting in the General season ( no does on forest land except during archery season)

[injun]

[quote name="westend1" post="750250" timestamp="1264600344"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750233#msg750233 date=1264594520]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750120#msg750120 date=1264563829]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750105#msg750105 date=1264563058]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]

I guess that is what I don't understand.  i've killed tons of stuff with my bow as well. Haven't picked up a rifle since 1990.  I have no desire to shoot a skinny, 1 1/2 year old buck.  I somewhat understand that some still find pleasure in shooting little deer, but I don't.  So, from a personal perspective, I like the change.  And, if hunters will give it a chance, they should be able to shoot just as many deer as before within a couple of years, but they will be larger deer.  Why is that such a bad thing?   2 or 3 lost years, where you still might stumble across a legal deer, a spike or a doe.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.
[/quote]Where is it you hunt again????
[/quote]

I hunt near Junction, now.  You would hate being on my lease.   We have far more restrictive rules than a 13" spread.   We only shoot bucks that are 5 year olds.  I haven't killed one in two years, but I did see a couple of really good bucks that I couldn't get a shot at.   
[/quote] I really would not have a problem with that.. I just like to shoot a deer or 2 for the table. You can shoot does on your lease  can't you?

[westend1]

[quote name="injun" post="750333" timestamp="1264606829"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750250#msg750250 date=1264600344]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750233#msg750233 date=1264594520]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750120#msg750120 date=1264563829]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750105#msg750105 date=1264563058]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]

I guess that is what I don't understand.  i've killed tons of stuff with my bow as well. Haven't picked up a rifle since 1990.  I have no desire to shoot a skinny, 1 1/2 year old buck.  I somewhat understand that some still find pleasure in shooting little deer, but I don't.  So, from a personal perspective, I like the change.  And, if hunters will give it a chance, they should be able to shoot just as many deer as before within a couple of years, but they will be larger deer.  Why is that such a bad thing?   2 or 3 lost years, where you still might stumble across a legal deer, a spike or a doe.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.
[/quote]Where is it you hunt again????
[/quote]

I hunt near Junction, now.  You would hate being on my lease.   We have far more restrictive rules than a 13" spread.   We only shoot bucks that are 5 year olds.  I haven't killed one in two years, but I did see a couple of really good bucks that I couldn't get a shot at.   
[/quote] I really would not have a problem with that.. I just like to shoot a deer or 2 for the table. You can shoot does on your lease  can't you?
[/quote]

Sure.  We need to kill at least 20 each year.  We have 6 hunters and probably kill half that many.  Most everyone is waiting to shoot an axis.    My son got an axis doe this year with his bow, and I shot a whitetail doe, so meat was not really an issue for us.  Look, I guess I understand that everbody has situations that make it tough to get a deer each year, and lots of people want a deer for the grill, but I truly believe that this new reg will be good in the long run, and maybe I can get back here in east Texas so I don't have to  make a 6 hour drive to find decent hunting.  I would much prefer to find a place that I could hunt more than 4 weekends per year.  i just got tired of the big timber leases where you couldn't pass a deer, knowing that the next guy down the pipeline was going to shoot it.   

[tvc184]

[quote name="643" post="750292" timestamp="1264603909"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750105#msg750105 date=1264563058]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]Well shoot a cpl of Does then, besides some are smarter than most bucks...
[/quote]

The problem with that is that does are not generally allowed on public land. I disagree with those rules but they are the rules.

The does there probably need to be managed and I have thought that they should have a public drawing or maybe give limited ones out on the actual days of the hunt in a national or state park/forest. Much like you check in at duck/goose hunting locations. Have state biologists hand doe permits out the day of the hunts so that they can somewhat control the taking of does and not have a wholesale slaughter of basically unregulated land. I also think that to do such a program would not only help the herd but lighten up a lot of the pressure on the buck population for people that want to see a result of their time hunting.

For people that say they are on a meat hunt and could care less about horns, I have no problem with that but the state hurts their own cause by not letting does be taken as that meat.

[SWB]

No one is asking you to be a Trophy Hunter. ???  Just, to stop killing 1 1/2 yo basket racks.

[color=red]
SWB: I did not modify your post but accidentally hit "Modify" instead of "Quote". I realized my mistake and reinstated your post. [/color]

[westend1]

Just curious.  Did anybody get ticketed this year for one of the 12 3'4" bucks, or the spike with hidden kickers?  Just wondering how lenient(or strict) the wardens were this year.  I haven't heard anything about it.

[tvc184]

[quote name="westend1" post="750355" timestamp="1264608939"]
Just curious.  Did anybody get ticketed this year for one of the 12 3'4" bucks, or the spike with hidden kickers?  Just wondering how lenient(or strict) the wardens were this year.  I haven't heard anything about it.
[/quote]

Looking at some hunting forums, it is according to where you were, according to the warden and "probably" according to the situation/attitude of the violator. I did hear of some people being ticketed and others being warned.

[injun]

I know I wouldn't want to leave it in a wardens hand to decide

[ReadOption]

The past couple years we have mainly taken doe off our lease with very few bucks.  About ten years ago we started a six point or better rule, but like other lease's who try to manage it is hard to do when bordering leases shoot every buck that walks through.  With the new 13" minimum rule and harvesting more doe from our lease we are seeing more and better bucks compared to the past.  Game cameras allow us to monitor several bucks on our lease; granted some bucks you see during hunting season can be from an outside area due to the amount of land they cover during the rut.  Overall, several of us believe it has only helped with allowing bucks to mature and be able to produce larger antlers and the pictures prove it.

[tvc184]

[quote name="mcdonajp" post="889685" timestamp="1288289290"]
The past couple years we have mainly taken doe off our lease with very few bucks.  About ten years ago we started a six point or better rule, but like other lease's who try to manage it is hard to do when bordering leases shoot every buck that walks through.  With the new 13" minimum rule and harvesting more doe from our lease we are seeing more and better bucks compared to the past.  Game cameras allow us to monitor several bucks on our lease; granted some bucks you see during hunting season can be from an outside area due to the amount of land they cover during the rut.  [size=10pt][b]Overall, several of us believe it has only helped with allowing bucks to mature and be able to produce larger antlers and the pictures prove it.[/b][/size]
[/quote]

We had the 6 point or better rule, which was nonsense in my opinion. Why even have such a rule? It is acceptable to kill a 6 point yearling and not a 4 point yearling? It is still a year and a half old deer. We aren't going to mount either rack so why the arbitrary number of points? Like I said though, we did it also for some reason. Maybe that was just the prevailing thinking in east Texas. The meat of a 6 point is okay but the meat from a 4 point isn't.
???

Anyway, about five years ago we went to the almost wholesale killing of does. Not completely but on 970 acres we started popping about 20 does a year on average. That is around 100 does in five years. The first year we did not kill a legal buck per our lease rules which was a 3.5 year old deer or older. The deal was to quit killing the 1.5 and 2.5 year old babies.

Two years ago we had a member kill a buck with a 138" rack which is by far the biggest in many years. I think last year we got a 141" buck and a couple of others with good racks.

Of course, the state has stepped in with the antler restrictions which pretty much complied with our 3.5 year or older rule anyway. We just got a jump on the rules voluntarily. The bottom line is that killing does and letting the bucks grow up makes for bigger, better and more deer for the herd.

A coworker made a statement a few years ago when we started our self imposed management plan. It was, "Where you start is where you will end".

If you allow the killing of 6 points, that is what you will kill. The reason is that someone on the lease will kill most of the young deer and very few will ever grow up. If you all a 6 point, that is basically where your deer herd will end. If you go with a 3.5 year old deer, same answer. Once a deer reaches that age and people on the lease are willing to take them, that is generally where the herd will grow to. If you have a rule of 135" or more, same answer.

[ReadOption]

TVC I completely agree with and understand your basis.  Ten years ago 6 pt. or better was our first stab at managing.  I can only think of one, maybe two six points that were actually harvested over the past ten years.  Almost all of the bucks harvested were 8pt or better though not necessarily 13" wide.  With the 13" rule there will be some nice 8's that will walk due to lack of width.  We have harvested 2-3 doe per buck in the last couple years.  Several of us manage food plots, mineral sites, protein feeders, etc. but the key factor to a buck's antler growth is age!

[tvc184]

Age and kill the does. Got to get those mouths out of the food chain.

I forgot how much a deer eats per week in weight but I did some figuring on it one time and from October to the end of February, a single deer eats something like half a ton of food. If a person is hunting on nearly a 1,000 lease like we were and you kill 10 does early (hopefully in early October during archery season) that is potentially five more tons of food available for the remaining deer.

I have heard that a healthy deer will eat up to seven pounds of food a day. For every two you take off of your lease over a four month period, that is another ton of food for other deer. That is something that the old hands that don't believe in killing does don't or won't get. It does not help the herd or the hunting if you have that 1,000 acres holding maybe 100 deer and 85 of them are does. I have seen exactly that on our lease a few years ago. Now we hardly see a doe but see a lot of very healthy bucks. The deer population has remained fairly steady though.

We went to a meeting maybe 6 or 7 years ago in Jasper put on by a Texas Parks and Wildlife biologist and a private biologist. Someone asked what the quickest way to improve the herd on a small lease like 500-1,000 acres. Food plots? Protein supplements? Changing the soil ph so that more native plants with protein would grow better? Horn management?

Both of them said if one thing that will improve the herd the quickest... kill does, kill does and kill does.

After we did that, I will concur.

[ST413]

Love the effects of this rule but it can sure be hard to tell if some of these deer are legal or not.

[tvc184]

[quote name="ST413" post="900908" timestamp="1289171745"]
Love the effects of this rule but it can sure be hard to tell if some of these deer are legal or not.
[/quote]
I think that is the intent. If it is close, why shoot?

[ST413]

Somee of the ones in our area that need to be culled are too close.

[tvc184]

I believe that no matter what limit they set, they assume that you should use caution and not shoot a "legal" animal as if you could run out and measure it and find out that it is 13.001" and therefore okay to shoot. You have to draw the line somewhere and most 3.5 year old deer will reach 13". If they have a lesser standard, then 2.5 year old deer can be legally shot and that would defeat the purpose of a more mature deer herd.

A more exact method would be aging them on the hoof and shooting a mature (3.5) year old deer but if you think people have a problem with horn width, wait till it becomes more subjective as, "That one sure looks 3.5 years old to me".

I was hunting at a ranch and a guy killed a basket rack 6 point and swore it was a mature deer. The deer was a healthy young deer that was about 105 pounds and had a very thin neck and pencil thin horns. It seemed clearly a yearling but this guy was adamant that it was mature.

When you set a horn limit, no matter anything else, is easy to measure. If they are close, don't shoot. If they are easily outside of the ears, fire away.

Remeber that the intent of the law is not to kill all 3.5 year old and 13" horned deer. It is to grow a more healthy mature herd.

[ST413]

Yes age is very hard. I went on a trip several years ago where the club wanted you to shoot a 5.5 year old or older. A seasoned hunter let one pass 3 times before deciding he could shoot. I hadn't been on a hunt where you would see that quality of deer before and I watched one for 15 minutes before I finally decided I could shoot. It was aged at 6.5 years. The problem here in se tx is you don't usually get but maybe a minute or two. My stand can be just a few seconds if they walk across. I like the rule just scared of a mistake especially where an excited wife or kid could be hunting.

[tvc184]

And this is beating a dead horse but for many (or most) leases, they can go MLD and hunt two months longer with a rifle and kill without concern of antler restrictions.

[ST413]

Yeah where I am mostly concerned is private land circled by more private land and one lease. A lot of messed up horns there. I have a pic of one I killed a few yrs ago that I would post if I knew how.

[Lefty99]

[quote name="ST413" post="901463" timestamp="1289219049"]
[b]Yeah where I am mostly concerned is private land circled by more private land and one lease.[/b] A lot of messed up horns there. I have a pic of one I killed a few yrs ago that I would post if I knew how.
[/quote]


I am in that same situation but I was able to talk to a guy that is on the lease next to the private land that I hunt.  They aren't MLD yet but they have managed themselves for several yr.  The quality of bucks that I see are nice young deer with good potential.  It also helps that the land i am on borders a residential neighborhood.