Ref question

[football2010]

Scenario, a play is ran by the offense, defense has twelve men on the field, however referee did not catch it. After the play the coach points out there are too many defensive players on the field. At this point the play is over and about half the offensive team is huddled and others walking toward huddle. At this point the referee counts the defensive players and then throws the flag. Is that previous play conducted with the 12 defensive players that was not caught by the referee until after the play able to be penalized? Or would they have to wait until the snap and then call it?

[Callaway7]

If they could clearly see that the play had to been run with 12 throw the flag and give the option of play or penalty. It's suppose to be a dead ball foul now anyway. So no harm really done except for the buty chewing alil bit

[football2010]

Ok but they never threw a flag until after the coach on the other team brought it to the attention of the ref after the play. Since the play was done and over and the ref didn't catch it, am I correct by saying at that point the flag can't be thrown?

[Callaway7]

Ya sounds like there was a bit of time between play and when they saw it so they can't prove what they didn't catch. So no flag and take the chewing. It gets pretty helter skelter when pace gets picked up now by teams.

[RETIREDFAN1]

Most of them just make it up as they go along, anyway...... :lol:

[MoFo]

Refs job is to try and get it right If the coach points out there were 12 defense of man and the refs count them there was he can throw the flag. How many times do you see a coach pointing out to a ref that a player is being held, majority of the time that will get called the next time that player holds

[fireinthehole]

I once was a football official. The refs should have thrown the flag before the ball was snapped and save the team a 15 yard penalty and make it a 5 yard penalty instead for " breaking the huddle with 12". However, once the the ball has been snapped and you do play with 12 it should then be a 15 yard penalty. Officials try to save the team from a 15 harder but sometimes it happens. ....And yes if they do not notice it till after the play is should go back to the previous spot if it is against the offense and a 15 yard penalty should be issued. If it is against the defense then it is a spot foul or from the original line of scrimmage if there was a loss on the play. 

[tvc184]

Having almost no clue of the rules............

 

I thought that if the next play is snapped, the previous play is in the record books. If the next play has not been snapped, is there a time frame after a play is whistled dead when a ref can no longer throw the flag? I thought that anything was in the discretion of the refs up until the point of the next snap. I know that I have seen flags after the whistle that applied to incidents that occurred during the play itself. 

 

But like I said, having no clue.................. 

[fireinthehole]

Unless I misunderstood, the next play had not been snapped. From what i understand about the scenario the officials discovered this between the plays and therefore the previous play can still be penalized. If the ball had been snapped again, then yes, all you can say as an official is"I apologize for the mistake" and then the coaches go bananas!!

[bballdude]

Based on your scenario, it is perfectly acceptable, by rule (3.5.3(c)), to penalize the defense after the play is over and prior to the next snap.  While it may "look" bad to have a coach point this out, getting the proper call is most important.  Regardless of when you flag the defense, before the imminent snap or after the snap/play, it is a  5 yard penalty.  There is no defense from the other coach simply b/c the opposing coach pointed it out...You still had 12 coach!

 

@fireinthehole - Should the offense have an illegal substitution (breaking the huddle with more than 11) or illegal participation (more than 11 in a play), this is also a 5 yard penalty.  The 15-yard penalty you mention is only on the 2nd offense of rushing substitutions on without allowing the defense to respond/match-up. Different than 11 on the field for a play or breaking a huddle.

 

FB is a fast-paced game with officials having tons of responsibilities before, during and after each play.  Counting players is something that is supposed to be done prior to each play.  When you watch your next game, take a look at the officials signaling one another with their arms out, closed fist, open hand or thumbs up...that sort of thing.  This is where they are telling one another the count is correct or one team has fewer than 11, etc.  If you do not see this, it is a veteran crew OR they are forgetting to count which leads to the "Oops, there are 12 out here" scenario.  Can't catch every infraction however, our goal is to catch the infractions that have a bearing on a play (i.e. - holding away from the ball will NEVER be called).  12 on the field is a biggie!