stevenash

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168466" timestamp="1328018313"] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95137.msg1168451#msg1168451 date=1328016868] wOW! And all this time I was thinking HJ made it to Austin at least 3 times within the decade [/quote] By the way they talk...you would think they were... ::) :D....but those type of feats are reserved for the PA Lincolns, the Beaumont Ozens, the Fort Worth Dunbars, the Houston Yates', and Houston Wheatleys of the world!!! Right, Bluedove?  ;D ;D ;D [/quote] Dickie- Instead of spewing words that you believe sound good, just show where "they" "talk" like they have been there more than they actually have. 

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168451" timestamp="1328016868"] wOW! And all this time I was thinking HJ made it to Austin at least 3 times within the decade [/quote] That's not possible.  It's not possible at all that a man with your knowledge/connections could be wrong about how many times ANY southeast Texas team made it to Austin this decade. 

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168462" timestamp="1328018059"] What about me, nash? 8)....Thats ok...I know what kind of salute you would give me..the one finger kind!  ;D...which is why I will be in your parking spot TONIGHT at HJ!! ;D ;D [/quote] I don't give the type of salutes that you infer I do.  I TRULY hope you are in my parking spot tonight.  It will make for a MOST interesting evening.

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168461" timestamp="1328017876"] [quote author=east texas bb link=topic=95134.msg1168344#msg1168344 date=1327963555] I think Perkins was skilled and athletic, and that is why as a freshman, most thought he would be in the NBA.  I played against Steven Jackson growing up throughout the entire summer, cant tell you how many games I played against him, Steven was more on the athletic side but still had a few skills.  IMO, Perkins did not improve a great deal from his freshman to senior year.  I dont know who helped these players develop their skills or if they learned by watching.  I am sure Coach Boutte is a fine coach, I too am not trying in anyway to diminish his accomplishments. [/quote] You thought Perk was ATHLETIC? As a NINTH grader? NO. He was not. Neither was Stevie. Kendrick was a very skilled post player who had some size on him obviously, but there was nothing athletic about him early on. If you don't think he got better from grade 9-12, you missed it. I think the fact he was doing the same thing (dominating) to high school players from grades 10-12, it may have APPEARED that he didn't get better, but he really did. Otherwise he would have been another Kwame Brown or Eddie Curry in the NBA...His early NBA years, Doc Rivers said himself that he was good enough to play, he was just not ready for the speed of the NBA game and used those early years for strictly teaching and adjusting for him. [/quote] It looks as though you are now willing to acknowledge that the great bulk of what made Perkins an NBA player was accomplished by the Celtics?

[quote name="Rock of Ages" post="1168458" timestamp="1328017592"] I suppose it's a sign of the times that " great " coaching is defined as winning a state championship. It is unfortunate that we allow ourselves to be defined by the number of wins a coach produces. The best coaches I have had the pleasure to meet often evaluated themselves by the lives they affected and the life lessons sport teaches. A championship of any kind is impressive, but so are the positives that our students take with them after the playing days are done. [/quote] I salute you sir and easttexasbb as well.

Yes, we see what we are doing.  What we see is apparently slightly different from your viewpoint.  Our contention is that only a very few of those who coach get to experience a state title and yet there are a myriad of coaches who have the same capabilities as those who won a title.  I suspect if you hadnt grown up in Buna and you would be honest about it, you could not name a high school coach who had won a state title 30 years ago.  I am as fanatical about basketball as most anyone and I dont remember who won what 30 years ago.  As I stated earlier, if Sutherland, English, and Boutte all traded places, I am pretty confident that the results at each school would have been quite similar.  Same goes for Fred Williams and James Gamble.  Particularly in high school ( considerably less in college and even less in the NBA) being in the right place at the right time has quite a bit to do with ones ability to become successful because the playing field is less even than at the higher levels.

Does the re-alignment moving some houston schools from 4-a to 3-a spell the end for beaumont area teams advancing in the playoffs as one person suggests?

Yes, Soulja- I am already here at the HJ gym with my laptop and television.  Will spend the next hour listening to you and then installing the new dunk-o-meter

[quote name="KHSAlum400" post="1168347" timestamp="1327964217"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95137.msg1168345#msg1168345 date=1327963896] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95137.msg1168339#msg1168339 date=1327963085] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95137.msg1168336#msg1168336 date=1327962867] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95137.msg1168325#msg1168325 date=1327961955] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95137.msg1168317#msg1168317 date=1327961513] If my memory is correct, HJ won it in 91,07 and lost in the semis in 09. (not sure if 09 is correct but is close) [/quote]Thats it? one time?????  :o [/quote] How does "one time" relate to two state titles and a loss in the semis? [/quote]One time since 2000? I just thought it would have been more since 2000 [/quote] Nope- It is what it is.  However, again if my memory is correct, they have been to Huntsville each of the last 5 years. [/quote] My question was the State Tournament. If Regionals is your goal, then I guess you've been pretty successful in reaching it.  ;) [/quote] State Tourney appearances were listed before.  Since state titles are not all that common, it might be useful to also point out the "near state tournament appearances".  Five in a row is pretty good.  Know anyone else in this area who has done that recently?

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168339" timestamp="1327963085"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95137.msg1168336#msg1168336 date=1327962867] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95137.msg1168325#msg1168325 date=1327961955] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95137.msg1168317#msg1168317 date=1327961513] If my memory is correct, HJ won it in 91,07 and lost in the semis in 09. (not sure if 09 is correct but is close) [/quote]Thats it? one time?????  :o [/quote] How does "one time" relate to two state titles and a loss in the semis? [/quote]One time since 2000? I just thought it would have been more since 2000 [/quote] Nope- It is what it is.  However, again if my memory is correct, they have been to Huntsville each of the last 5 years.

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168341" timestamp="1327963231"] I think Joe Sigler is a coach most don't give credit too. I think he is in the top 20 in Texas in Alltime wins and district title. He hasn't had the privilege of winning a state title but there aren't too many coaches in SETX who I would rather have over him.......CHURCH! [/quote] Sigler is an excellent example of a good competent coach without a state title.  If he wins it all this year, there will be nothing he knew or did that he didnt know or wouldnt have done 2 or 3 or 4 years ago.  A lot of it will have to do with, as someone else said, being in the right place at the right time.

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168325" timestamp="1327961955"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95137.msg1168317#msg1168317 date=1327961513] If my memory is correct, HJ won it in 91,07 and lost in the semis in 09. (not sure if 09 is correct but is close) [/quote]Thats it? one time?????  :o [/quote] How does "one time" relate to two state titles and a loss in the semis?

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168324" timestamp="1327961953"] Once again, that year Vidor was good! Each game could have gone either way...HOWEVER....Vidor came in 2nd place, Ozen won the district.  Vidor lost in round two, Ozen went to regionals...Its not that hard to understand why I see things a bit different. [/quote] I know its not hard to understand.  The only reality you must face is your opinion is a valid one but it is NOT, under ANY circumstance, the gospel.  Say all you want about who won district.  The point being made is that Mr. Boutte, did NOT, by any STRETCH, do anything to outcoach Mr. English that year.  Boutte was a great coach but he is still a human being and holds NO (yes that means NONE) mystical powers that arent possessed by other competent coaches.  If Boutte had gone to Central instead of Ozen, would the results have been the same for the Jags?  I know your answer so, in advance, I will say "give me a break"

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168320" timestamp="1327961777"] I will take a skilled player any day over an athletic one.  You guys think Perk was athletic? or skilled? How about KT (Keena Young) athletic? or skilled? Steve Jackson? Athletic or skilled? So, stevenash, you think they walked in the gym skilled? Stevie was probably as close to that as one could be, to be honest, but he still needed to work on his guard game at 6'7" in order to be prepared for the next level. But I suppose that just occured naturally as well, right? ::)..By the way, he was a post man at Lincoln...who learned to play inside out...natural ability? according to some who don't know... ;) [/quote] I did not intend to imply that Coach Boutte did not help all of the above with improving their game.  But you spin it as though ONLY HE could get that done and you are simply very wrong about that.  You are, in an indirect way, saying that if they had all had a different coach, none of them would be where they are and I totally disagree with that.  If Mr. Boutte possessed the "magical touch" to the extent you think he did, instead of becoming the AD, he would have accepted one of a multitude of D-1 offers and by now, be in the NBA.  Furthermore, I will INSIST that a lot of credit to Perkins development lies with the Celtics staff since they were, in essence, his "college" coaches. 

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168306" timestamp="1327960894"] I just don't understand how you guys can say, with the body of work that was done, (STATE TITLES) that it was ALWAYS due to having a "talent" advantage...Ironically enough, my good friend over at Nederland, is proving me to be RIGHT...Ozen has more talent this season...Nederland is undefeated in district 20-4A...I am done... ::)..I am agreeing with east texas bb about the "talent" statement, yet I don't really think he realizes it yet... ;) [/quote] Interesting because I recall you stating that in the year when Vidor beat Ozen 3 out of 4 times you stated it was because of superior talent.  Seems like you may use talent as a reason only when it bolsters the point you are trying to make.  IF we use your parameters for talent, the Vidor team we are speaking of had no where near the "talent" that Ozen did (stressing your definition of talent)

If my memory is correct, HJ won it in 91,07 and lost in the semis in 09. (not sure if 09 is correct but is close)

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168308" timestamp="1327961108"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168296#msg1168296 date=1327959560] [quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95134.msg1168292#msg1168292 date=1327958983] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894] If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player? [/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D [/quote] Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it. But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player 1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee 2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom 3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins 4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale 5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald 6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy [/quote]Unless its Isaiah Thomas, I really don't care. He was smart, quick, athletic, a scorer, a passer, and those are the players I liked to watch. [/quote] Thanks for avoiding my question which gives me the answer anyway.  I think you are right, Isaiah had it all.  Only problem I had with Isaiah is when he said " If Larry Bird had been black, he would have just been another ordinary player".  In that instance, Isaiah was not particularly smart.

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168294" timestamp="1327959243"] Very True Blue. I just dont think most people realize the difficulty or the difference in building a basketball program to inheriting one. To influence a community and school to do something they have never done before is huge, gaining all of the support and effort from the town, teaching kids how to play at a young age and knowing that will be your future is a huge statement and committment.  Going from consistently losing to consistently winning is a culture change to the entire community/school, and one that only a few get a chance to do and even less get to be around to see the results. [/quote] Since he wont be able to say it himself due to personal values, I can tell you that East texas has been a participant in what he described above and therefore is speaking from personal experience

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168292" timestamp="1327958983"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894] If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player? [/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D [/quote] Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it. But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player 1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee 2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom 3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins 4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale 5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald 6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy

Agree.  Also, I suppose you would have to define talent.  First thing that comes to mind is running and jumping.  But I know of a great number of players at the high school level who had far better shooting skills/touch than their speedy, high jumping counterparts and I look at those skills( which, although they are developed are a also a function of hand/eye co-ordination) as a talent component as well. If speed and jumping were the only components, I would have to think that all sprinters and high jumpers would be great basketball players and that simply isnt the case.

;D

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168255" timestamp="1327956565"] By the way..Perk HOISTED up that three in Austin in the state game in 2003, out of sheer frustration..He was one of two seniors with a bunch of 10th graders on the floor.. 8)....Yeah, I gave him the WHAT THE ---- look as well!! :D [/quote] I know- I was there- If those players were so well coached, wouldn't they have known better than to do that?

If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168251" timestamp="1327956228"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168241#msg1168241 date=1327955572] I dont have to take any time.  I disagree with your assessment about the talent,skill, intellect at Ozen and also with your theory that Mr. Boutte would somehow magically transform them into something substantially greater than they are.  No, I dont think Bird is better than M.J.  Nor is anyone else for that matter.  If you are going to sit there and try to convince everyone that Ozen goes to Austin this year if Boutte is coaching, you are dreaming a giant dream.  I emphasize that this is just my opinion and that doesnt count for much.  There is only one difference in that respect between you and me.  I know what I don't know. One more question:  Are Rick Carlisle and Eric Spoelstra the same coaches they were 3 years ago?  Also, is the K. Perkins 3 point attempt at the state tourney a result of "good coaching"? [/quote] Stevenash, Ozen IS more talented than Nederland...Better team right now? Maybe not, but they have more basketball talent over there right now. So according to you guys theories about Coach Boutte and him always having "talent", would it not be a fair assesment to say that he would have a fair amount of success in district 20-4A with this team, as he has in years past, with more perceived talent?  ::) [/quote] POssibly, if we ACCEPT your THEORY that the talent is what you say it is.  That is where you and I disagree.  And yes, although not as good as MJ, I am confident that Larry Bird was, without a doubt, every bit as good as Magic.  Did the Heat have more talent than the Mavericks last season?

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168246" timestamp="1327955859"] Coach Boutte had the luxury of having the best talent in the area along with him being a players coach. Could Boutte have taken the talent in Silsbee to state and won back in the late 80's and 90's? What if he coached some of those good Cleveland teams? [/quote] IN the situations you  site, I think that is very conceivable.