Playing your starters in the 4th quarter with a big lead.......

[sleepy]

This is such a controversial topic I would love to hear everyone's opinions.  First question is what is a big lead?  I never blame a coach for playing guys if a game is within 20 points or so. When it is 30 is when I wonder to myself.  Before you say oh yeah your from HJ we know what your opinion will be, hold on. I played on an HJ team in 1998 and we were 4A for 2 years and we were totally out manned.  We were beat by 50 or 60 at Silsbee and I never had a problem with it then and I don't now. The only time I ever have a problem with coaches playing starters in the 4th quarter is if there is less than 2 minutes left and you are up 20 plus or up 30 plus going in to the 4th and you press.  With that said you have coaches who love to press to work on the specifics of it. 

Then there is another school of thought.  When you put the backups in do you expect those guys to not press or play the hard defense they do every day in practice.  They deserve to be able to go in there, work hard, and make plays.  I know the team out of Houston caught all kinds of hell a couple of years back for this and I never had a problem with. I think intensity is a mentality and the second you let up your players may quit buying in to it.

I guess my bottom line is I never have a problem with continuing to play hard in the 4th quarter. 

[BLUEDOVE3]

Good comments. No debate from me.

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="sleepy" post="1165774" timestamp="1327508571"]
This is such a controversial topic I would love to hear everyone's opinions.  First question is what is a big lead?  I never blame a coach for playing guys if a game is within 20 points or so. When it is 30 is when I wonder to myself.  Before you say oh yeah your from HJ we know what your opinion will be, hold on. I played on an HJ team in 1998 and we were 4A for 2 years and we were totally out manned.  We were beat by 50 or 60 at Silsbee and I never had a problem with it then and I don't now. The only time I ever have a problem with coaches playing starters in the 4th quarter is if there is less than 2 minutes left and you are up 20 plus or up 30 plus going in to the 4th and you press.  With that said you have coaches who love to press to work on the specifics of it. 

Then there is another school of thought.  When you put the backups in do you expect those guys to not press or play the hard defense they do every day in practice.  They deserve to be able to go in there, work hard, and make plays.  I know the team out of Houston caught all kinds of heck a couple of years back for this and I never had a problem with. I think intensity is a mentality and the second you let up your players may quit buying in to it.

I guess my bottom line is I never have a problem with continuing to play hard in the 4th quarter.
[/quote]The problem is, keeping the players intensity up when they are ahead by 50.  When the alley-oops start flying and stuff like that, then your players are starting to lose their focus.  At that point you yank them out and let other players get their time in, because bad habits start forming.

[HJ2012]

I think you also run the risk of injury. If you KNOW you are going to win, then what the heck? Send in those that don't play as much. However, if you are doing what HJ did last night, which is working on a different defensive set that doesn't get run very often (but may be needed somewhere down the line against a Silsbee or a Mexia or a Waco La Vega), then that is another reason to leave the starters in. You do have to remember though, that there are thirty-two minutes in every basketball game, and all of them have to be played. And, sleepy, the intensity argument is absolutely true!

[Dick Vitale]

From experience, playing your starters in the 4th quarter of district blowouts is CRITICAL...You are dealing with two things here...1) staying sharp in preparation for the playoffs, and 2) Conditioning...If your top rotation of guys are only playing HALF of games during district, they are being put at a grave disadvantage when the playoffs hit...If your guys have not played a complete game throughout district, you are talking about a month and a half of playing in HALF of games, which hurts your players GAME conditioning...You use blowouts, not to embarrass the other team, but to WORK on certain sets, play defenses that you may use in the playoffs, and to strategically THROW OFF potential playoff opponents scouts in the stands, by running sets that you NEVER usually run...Use blowouts as a game speed practice session.  8)

[sleepy]

Love that post Dickie!

[team first]

As soon as ur best players goes down with a season ending injury, I bet most want play many starters again with a big lead late in the game

[Dick Vitale]

Certain things are beyond your control...However, if you sit your players throughout district, your team will suffer anyway, in the long run...Injuries can happen in the first quarter of the first scrimmage of the season...its part of the game....NOT playing you rotation in district because you are blowing teams out is just not smart...Now, with that said, is there a point in a contest where you DO pull them out? Of course, but not for an entire half or quarter, as mentioned earlier.

[baddog]

Something bad must be about to happen.......I agree with Dickie. Very well thought out DV.

I don't believe in yanking the whole starting lineup, but I would sub where I usually would not. Put that third stringer in with some starters and feed him the ball. That can't hurt too much.

[sleepy]

Agree again Dickie!

[Honest Abe]

When you're up by 25+ points at the beginning of the 4th Q against a 'weaker team', your starters should not get on the floor the rest of the game. You want to improve your team? Allow the bench players to improve their game. Not every district game is a blow out, so resting your starters in the 4th for 3-4 district games will not hurt you in the playoffs, IMO. If every game was a blow out, then you have a valid point, but that's not the case. Example last night was in the Ned/Vidor game. Ned had a 43 point lead after 3Qs, and the Ned starters sat the entire 4th Q. why would any coach keep the starters in that game is pointless. Allow your bench players to get PT which might help your team down the road.

[BADSANTA]

Pull them!  You never know when you will need your reserves to play heavy minutes due to injury or foul trouble. Most reserves only play 10-12 minutes anyway. If you can get a few of them some extra playing time I say do it.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1165831" timestamp="1327516839"]
When you're up by 25+ points at the beginning of the 4th Q against a 'weaker team', your starters should not get on the floor the rest of the game. You want to improve your team? Allow the bench players to improve their game. Not every district game is a blow out, so resting your starters in the 4th for 3-4 district games will not hurt you in the playoffs, IMO. If every game was a blow out, then you have a valid point, but that's not the case. Example last night was in the Ned/Vidor game. Ned had a 43 point lead after 3Qs, and the Ned starters sat the entire 4th Q. why would any coach keep the starters in that game is pointless. Allow your bench players to get PT which might help your team down the road.
[/quote]
If you want your bench to improve, you play them when its on the LINE....they will NOT help you in the playoffs if the only time they can play are garbage minutes up 40+....Doesn't work that way...I'm not saying leave your rotation in for an entire quarter, but I would not sit them that long either...Now granted, Nederland is not blowing EVERYBODY out in the district, so would sitting them last night for an entire quarter hurt them? NOT HARDLY...BUT, I have coached and played in situations in district where we were blowing EVERYBODY out like that...You can't sit guys down every 4th quarter of every district game like that...THAT WOULD BE DETRIMENTAL.

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1165848" timestamp="1327517876"]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94871.msg1165831#msg1165831 date=1327516839]
When you're up by 25+ points at the beginning of the 4th Q against a 'weaker team', your starters should not get on the floor the rest of the game. You want to improve your team? Allow the bench players to improve their game. Not every district game is a blow out, so resting your starters in the 4th for 3-4 district games will not hurt you in the playoffs, IMO. If every game was a blow out, then you have a valid point, but that's not the case. Example last night was in the Ned/Vidor game.
Ned had a 43 point lead after 3Qs, and the Ned starters sat the entire 4th Q. why would any coach keep the starters in that game is pointless. Allow your bench players to get PT which might help your team down the road.
[/quote]
If you want your bench to improve, you play them when its on the LINE....they will NOT help you in the playoffs if the only time they can play are garbage minutes up 40+....Doesn't work that way...I'm not saying leave your rotation in for an entire quarter, but I would not sit them that long either...Now granted, Nederland is not blowing
EVERYBODY out in the district, so would sitting them last night for an entire quarter hurt them? NOT HARDLY...BUT, I have coached and played in situations in district where we were blowing EVERYBODY out like that...You can't sit guys down every 4th quarter of every district game like that...THAT WOULD BE DETRIMENTAL.
[/quote]
That's exactly what I said:
Quote:
"Not every district game is a blow out, so resting your starters in the 4th for 3-4 district games will not hurt you in the playoffs, IMO. If every game was a blow out, then you have a valid point, but that's not the case."

[stevenash]

The great majority of coaches are better qualified to make playing time determinations than anyone else.

[sleepy]

Dickie has this topic nailed IMHO!

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1165854" timestamp="1327518276"]
The great majority of coaches are better qualified to make playing time determinations than anyone else.
[/quote]
I would like to think that I am more than qualified to answer the question at hand. Sometimes you just understand the terrain of certain battlegrounds, simply because you've just been there.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1165862" timestamp="1327519299"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94871.msg1165854#msg1165854 date=1327518276]
The great majority of coaches are better qualified to make playing time determinations than anyone else.
[/quote]
I would like to think that I am more than qualified to answer the question at hand. Sometimes you just understand the terrain of certain battlegrounds, simply because you've just been there.
[/quote]

Not questioning your background or knowledge.  Simply pointing out to the majority of us who are not coaches that the coaches are better equipped to make the decision than most of us are.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1165867" timestamp="1327519497"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94871.msg1165862#msg1165862 date=1327519299]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94871.msg1165854#msg1165854 date=1327518276]
The great majority of coaches are better qualified to make playing time determinations than anyone else.
[/quote]
I would like to think that I am more than qualified to answer the question at hand. Sometimes you just understand the terrain of certain battlegrounds, simply because you've just been there.
[/quote]

Not questioning your background or knowledge.  Simply pointing out to the majority of us who are not coaches that the coaches are better equipped to make the decision than most of us are.
[/quote]
8) 8)...I didn't think that you were, stevenash...Although you are known for your suttle sarcasm at times! ;)...Especially between you and Bluedove! 8)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1165880" timestamp="1327520413"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94871.msg1165867#msg1165867 date=1327519497]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94871.msg1165862#msg1165862 date=1327519299]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94871.msg1165854#msg1165854 date=1327518276]
The great majority of coaches are better qualified to make playing time determinations than anyone else.
[/quote]
I would like to think that I am more than qualified to answer the question at hand. Sometimes you just understand the terrain of certain battlegrounds, simply because you've just been there.
[/quote]

Not questioning your background or knowledge.  Simply pointing out to the majority of us who are not coaches that the coaches are better equipped to make the decision than most of us are.
[/quote]
8) 8)...I didn't think that you were, stevenash...Although you are known for your suttle sarcasm at times! ;)...Especially between you and Bluedove! 8)
[/quote]

;D

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1165867" timestamp="1327519497"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94871.msg1165862#msg1165862 date=1327519299]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94871.msg1165854#msg1165854 date=1327518276]
The great majority of coaches are better qualified to make playing time determinations than anyone else.
[/quote]
I would like to think that I am more than qualified to answer the question at hand. Sometimes you just understand the terrain of certain battlegrounds, simply because you've just been there.
[/quote]

Not questioning your background or knowledge.  Simply pointing out to the majority of us who are not coaches that the coaches are better equipped to make the decision than most of us are.
[/quote]Nash, I beg to differ :-\ As I sit high in the bleachers I see everything going on what the coaches don't see. But  they never ask nor agree with the decision I have made.

[stevenash]

Hmmm- You would think that if you have such a "sight" advantage, that a coach would station one of his assistants up there to provide that "enlightened" perspective.  Can you give me an example of what you see that the coach could not?

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1165933" timestamp="1327526174"]
Hmmm- You would think that if you have such a "sight" advantage, that a coach would station one of his assistants up there to provide that "enlightened" perspective.  Can you give me an example of what you see that the coach could not?
[/quote]The whole court!

[Honest Abe]

A coach can only observe so much. His assistants should provide input. Some schools have those types of assistants, others not so much. Coaches will listen to our thoughts, I know for certain. Sometimes they agree and are greatful when you bring up something with substance, but most of the time they see it differently and provide rationale to their thoughts.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1165937" timestamp="1327526675"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94871.msg1165933#msg1165933 date=1327526174]
Hmmm- You would think that if you have such a "sight" advantage, that a coach would station one of his assistants up there to provide that "enlightened" perspective.  Can you give me an example of what you see that the coach could not?
[/quote]The whole court!
[/quote]

The coach can see the whole court also.  You are simply saying that you can view it from a different perspective ( looking down instead of across)  With all of the vast resources that the NBA has, why hasn't Phil Jackson or Doc Rivers or Eric Spoelstra posted somebody up high in the bleachers?  The "ultimate" " man from above" is Mr. Jerry Jones and that, sir, has been a total DISASTER. ;D