Now that the coaching question has been exploited-

[stevenash]

If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?

[AggiesAreWe]

Personally, I think there is a difference in the term "more talented" and "better basketball player". ;)

[stevenash]

Agree.  Also, I suppose you would have to define talent.  First thing that comes to mind is running and jumping.  But I know of a great number of players at the high school level who had far better shooting skills/touch than their speedy, high jumping counterparts and I look at those skills( which, although they are developed are a also a function of hand/eye co-ordination) as a talent component as well.

If speed and jumping were the only components, I would have to think that all sprinters and high jumpers would be great basketball players and that simply isnt the case.

[Honest Abe]

Just posted this on another thread, but I believe that just bc one has more athletic ability in no way makes one a better basketball player (aka more talented basketball player). I guess it's how the definition is perceived. I'm sure that i perceive 'basketball talent' differently than stevenash or AAW does.

[BADSANTA]

I've seen teams with a bunch of slow basketball players out play a team of athletes many of times. Basketball skill will beat out Pure athlete all day. May not be as pretty but you will get winning results.

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168285" timestamp="1327958271"]
I've seen teams with a bunch of slow basketball players out play a team of athletes many of times. Basketball skill will beat out Pure athlete all day. May not be as pretty but you will get winning results.
[/quote]
Has somebody hijacked Badsanta's account? I've agreed with him 5 times today already!  ;D ;D

[CThoops]

Talent has to do with skill on the court.. Basketball players are a combination of both, Skill and athleticism,  and the best ones know that.. What type of players play at the next level and beyond? Not just guys who can shoot, or not just guys who can jump the highest or run fastest.. But the ones who understand their level of play and where they fit into the game.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168260" timestamp="1327956894"]
If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?
[/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168292" timestamp="1327958983"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894]
If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?
[/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D
[/quote]

Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it.
But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player

1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee
2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom
3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins
4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale
5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald
6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy

[east texas bb]

Badsanta, I agree with all of your statement, except that it isnt as pretty.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I like to watch basketball played in different ways, but to watch a team execute with precision is a more pure form to me. 
I agree with nash and AAW that the term "talent" gets mistaken too often with only meaning running fast, jumping high, and being physically strong.  There is so much more to athleticism than those.  When you find a player like MJ that combines them, then it is a thing of beauty.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168296" timestamp="1327959560"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95134.msg1168292#msg1168292 date=1327958983]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894]
If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?
[/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D
[/quote]

Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it.
But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player

1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee
2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom
3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins
4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale
5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald
6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy
[/quote]Unless its Isaiah Thomas, I really don't care. He was smart, quick, athletic, a scorer, a passer, and those are the players I liked to watch.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168297" timestamp="1327959578"]
Badsanta, I agree with all of your statement, except that it isnt as pretty.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I like to watch basketball played in different ways, but to watch a team execute with precision is a more pure form to me. 
I agree with nash and AAW that the term "talent" gets mistaken too often with only meaning running fast, jumping high, and being physically strong.  There is so much more to athleticism than those.  When you find a player like MJ that combines them, then it is a thing of beauty.
[/quote]and Isaiah Thomas- a thing of beauty :D

[BLUEDOVE3]

Many people think today if a kid hits 2- 3's out of 14 shots, can dunk a ball 1-2 times in a game, and jump high he has talent.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168308" timestamp="1327961108"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168296#msg1168296 date=1327959560]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95134.msg1168292#msg1168292 date=1327958983]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894]
If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?
[/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D
[/quote]

Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it.
But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player

1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee
2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom
3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins
4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale
5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald
6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy
[/quote]Unless its Isaiah Thomas, I really don't care. He was smart, quick, athletic, a scorer, a passer, and those are the players I liked to watch.
[/quote]

Thanks for avoiding my question which gives me the answer anyway.  I think you are right, Isaiah had it all.  Only problem I had with Isaiah is when he said " If Larry Bird had been black, he would have just been another ordinary player".  In that instance, Isaiah was not particularly smart.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168315" timestamp="1327961414"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95134.msg1168308#msg1168308 date=1327961108]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168296#msg1168296 date=1327959560]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95134.msg1168292#msg1168292 date=1327958983]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894]
If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?
[/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D
[/quote]

Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it.
But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player

1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee
2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom
3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins
4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale
5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald
6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy
[/quote]Unless its Isaiah Thomas, I really don't care. He was smart, quick, athletic, a scorer, a passer, and those are the players I liked to watch.
[/quote]

Thanks for avoiding my question which gives me the answer anyway.  I think you are right, Isaiah had it all.  Only problem I had with Isaiah is when he said " If Larry Bird had been black, he would have just been another ordinary player".  In that instance, Isaiah was not particularly smart.
[/quote]So you disagreed with Isaiah. I couldn't stand Larry Bird. I hated his work ethic, I hated his shooting, I hated his socks, I hated the name of his town, I hated his team (after he was on the team), I hated the tone of his voice,............

[Dick Vitale]

I will take a skilled player any day over an athletic one.  You guys think Perk was athletic? or skilled? How about KT (Keena Young) athletic? or skilled? Steve Jackson? Athletic or skilled? So, stevenash, you think they walked in the gym skilled? Stevie was probably as close to that as one could be, to be honest, but he still needed to work on his guard game at 6'7" in order to be prepared for the next level. But I suppose that just occured naturally as well, right? ::)..By the way, he was a post man at Lincoln...who learned to play inside out...natural ability? according to some who don't know... ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168320" timestamp="1327961777"]
I will take a skilled player any day over an athletic one.  You guys think Perk was athletic? or skilled? How about KT (Keena Young) athletic? or skilled? Steve Jackson? Athletic or skilled? So, stevenash, you think they walked in the gym skilled? Stevie was probably as close to that as one could be, to be honest, but he still needed to work on his guard game at 6'7" in order to be prepared for the next level. But I suppose that just occured naturally as well, right? ::)..By the way, he was a post man at Lincoln...who learned to play inside out...natural ability? according to some who don't know... ;)
[/quote]

I did not intend to imply that Coach Boutte did not help all of the above with improving their game.  But you spin it as though ONLY HE could get that done and you are simply very wrong about that.  You are, in an indirect way, saying that if they had all had a different coach, none of them would be where they are and I totally disagree with that.  If Mr. Boutte possessed the "magical touch" to the extent you think he did, instead of becoming the AD, he would have accepted one of a multitude of D-1 offers and by now, be in the NBA.  Furthermore, I will INSIST that a lot of credit to Perkins development lies with the Celtics staff since they were, in essence, his "college" coaches. 

[east texas bb]

I think Perkins was skilled and athletic, and that is why as a freshman, most thought he would be in the NBA.  I played against Steven Jackson growing up throughout the entire summer, cant tell you how many games I played against him, Steven was more on the athletic side but still had a few skills.  IMO, Perkins did not improve a great deal from his freshman to senior year.  I dont know who helped these players develop their skills or if they learned by watching.  I am sure Coach Boutte is a fine coach, I too am not trying in anyway to diminish his accomplishments.

[BMTSoulja1]

The Talented player is the player that can d___..  well, I'm not going to go there today.  ;D ;D

[RHBoiler]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168308" timestamp="1327961108"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168296#msg1168296 date=1327959560]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95134.msg1168292#msg1168292 date=1327958983]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95134.msg1168260#msg1168260 date=1327956894]
If one player is able to run faster and jump higher than his opponent, should we assume that he is the superior basketball player?  What if the slow, flat footed player has better shooting skills, understands better where he needs to be defensively, and, rather than being able to make the triple reverse layup, is able to find the open man on a regular basis and better understands shot selection?  Who is the better basketball player?
[/quote] Well,  I see how you were back in your days. ;D
[/quote]

Back in my days is no different than nowadays.  Am strictly a wannabe but am able to admit it.
But Dove, maybe you can answer the question I am about to pose.  In the following comparisons, tell me if the better athlete/alleged superior talent is also the better basketball player

1.  Kevin Love vs JaVale McGee
2.  Dirk Nowitzky vs Lamar Odom
3.  Larry Bird vs Dominique Wilkins
4.  Sam Perkins vs Kevin McHale
5.  John Stockton vs Nate Archibald
6.  Tim Duncan vs James Worthy
[/quote]Unless its Isaiah Thomas, I really don't care. He was smart, quick, athletic, a scorer, a passer, and those are the players I liked to watch.
[/quote]

My favorite Isiah Thomas pass was at the end of game 5 in the '87 conference championships. Great pass to Larry Bird, who fired it to DJ for the game winning basket. Classic Bird! Love watching that replay!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkkmOb8wCJY

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168344" timestamp="1327963555"]
I think Perkins was skilled and athletic, and that is why as a freshman, most thought he would be in the NBA.  I played against Steven Jackson growing up throughout the entire summer, cant tell you how many games I played against him, Steven was more on the athletic side but still had a few skills.  IMO, Perkins did not improve a great deal from his freshman to senior year.  I dont know who helped these players develop their skills or if they learned by watching.  I am sure Coach Boutte is a fine coach, I too am not trying in anyway to diminish his accomplishments.
[/quote]
You thought Perk was ATHLETIC? As a NINTH grader? NO. He was not. Neither was Stevie. Kendrick was a very skilled post player who had some size on him obviously, but there was nothing athletic about him early on. If you don't think he got better from grade 9-12, you missed it. I think the fact he was doing the same thing (dominating) to high school players from grades 10-12, it may have APPEARED that he didn't get better, but he really did. Otherwise he would have been another Kwame Brown or Eddie Curry in the NBA...His early NBA years, Doc Rivers said himself that he was good enough to play, he was just not ready for the speed of the NBA game and used those early years for strictly teaching and adjusting for him. 

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168461" timestamp="1328017876"]
[quote author=east texas bb link=topic=95134.msg1168344#msg1168344 date=1327963555]
I think Perkins was skilled and athletic, and that is why as a freshman, most thought he would be in the NBA.  I played against Steven Jackson growing up throughout the entire summer, cant tell you how many games I played against him, Steven was more on the athletic side but still had a few skills.  IMO, Perkins did not improve a great deal from his freshman to senior year.  I dont know who helped these players develop their skills or if they learned by watching.  I am sure Coach Boutte is a fine coach, I too am not trying in anyway to diminish his accomplishments.
[/quote]
You thought Perk was ATHLETIC? As a NINTH grader? NO. He was not. Neither was Stevie. Kendrick was a very skilled post player who had some size on him obviously, but there was nothing athletic about him early on. If you don't think he got better from grade 9-12, you missed it. I think the fact he was doing the same thing (dominating) to high school players from grades 10-12, it may have APPEARED that he didn't get better, but he really did. Otherwise he would have been another Kwame Brown or Eddie Curry in the NBA...His early NBA years, Doc Rivers said himself that he was good enough to play, he was just not ready for the speed of the NBA game and used those early years for strictly teaching and adjusting for him.
[/quote]

It looks as though you are now willing to acknowledge that the great bulk of what made Perkins an NBA player was accomplished by the Celtics?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168463" timestamp="1328018076"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=95134.msg1168461#msg1168461 date=1328017876]
[quote author=east texas bb link=topic=95134.msg1168344#msg1168344 date=1327963555]
I think Perkins was skilled and athletic, and that is why as a freshman, most thought he would be in the NBA.  I played against Steven Jackson growing up throughout the entire summer, cant tell you how many games I played against him, Steven was more on the athletic side but still had a few skills.  IMO, Perkins did not improve a great deal from his freshman to senior year.  I dont know who helped these players develop their skills or if they learned by watching.  I am sure Coach Boutte is a fine coach, I too am not trying in anyway to diminish his accomplishments.
[/quote]
You thought Perk was ATHLETIC? As a NINTH grader? NO. He was not. Neither was Stevie. Kendrick was a very skilled post player who had some size on him obviously, but there was nothing athletic about him early on. If you don't think he got better from grade 9-12, you missed it. I think the fact he was doing the same thing (dominating) to high school players from grades 10-12, it may have APPEARED that he didn't get better, but he really did. Otherwise he would have been another Kwame Brown or Eddie Curry in the NBA...His early NBA years, Doc Rivers said himself that he was good enough to play, he was just not ready for the speed of the NBA game and used those early years for strictly teaching and adjusting for him.
[/quote]

It looks as though you are now willing to acknowledge that the great bulk of what made Perkins an NBA player was accomplished by the Celtics?
[/quote]

The Celtics DID indeed develop Kendrick, a GREAT deal...However, let you guys tell it, our staff had NOTHING to do with it... ::)...He just CAME to Ozen NBA ready and Boutte reaped the benefits of being in the "right place".....again... ::)...according to some.

[stevenash]

Absolutely and UNEQUIVOCALLY not.  NOBODY said that he did not have a good experience at Ozen.  That is simply how you have chosen to rebute those who don't agree that Mr. Boutte is the ONLY won who could have made it possible for Perkins to go to the next level.  Once again, show me where it was said that Perkins came to Ozen NBA ready.  Dickie- this is a return to issues of the past.  You make statements that simply arent true and when someone calls you on it,you are offended.

[Dick Vitale]

I will as soon as you show me where I said Boutte was the ONLY one who could do it..I am not offended in the least. I KNOW the deal...I was there...Most with opinions about Perk's progress were not..I understand that some are looking from WAY outside...I know the work that had to be put it, because I put it in with him! Thats the difference that I was trying to explain to you...Its ok, man...I am not mad at all. If anything, saying that these guys that Boutte coached were JUST talented and THATS the reason why he was successful, could be seen as offensive...But I am not mad..I understand though.