Some should be ashamed......

[Bobcat101]

I was witnessed to a tragic reality. I saw many, many 10 year olds throwing curveball after curveball after curveball and I was very ashamed.

I'm not a Sports Medical Doctor, but 10 years should not be throwing curve ball. I dont the proper age but I've always been told that one should wait to teach a kid until 16 or 17.

When should you allow your son to throw the junk ball.???

I was several 10 years walking off the mound holder their arms after 50 pitches.

[sportsman04]

Usually its the dad trying to live the dream through the kids and think that a trophy at ford park is an olympic medal.  They for 1 shouldnt be throwing curveballs or sliders, especially from someone who doesnt know the correct way to throw it. 2 they ARE too young at 10.  Theres ways to make the ball move without the twisting and all the things that people think they know but really dont.  Mechanics and fundamentals is what should be being established at that age.  That is what keeps the young ones healthy throughout their career and gives them the best chance to succeed in this game.

[Chester86]

Excellent point!  It is truly amazing how early, and how often these young guys start throwing pitches that will hurt their arms.  I would specifically tell my pitchers "NO CURVEBALLS!"  You can't control them at their house, but when they are playing for you, it is your responsibility.  I personally don't think they should even attempt them until mid-way through high school.  Learn to place your fastball, and learn a change up, and leave the curveballs until your arm matures.

[bmtball]

Sadly, the most effective pitch in baseball is the change up.  Yet most kids and parents don't realize it.  No curve balls/sliders folks, place the fast ball learn the change. The out-pitch for Pedro Martinez, Halliday, Johan Santana, etc., is the change up not the curve ball/slider.  Learn the change forget the curve/slider.

[643]

YRS back I told both my sons IF I thought they were trying to thro one they would be in deep $^# I would keep a sharp eye out even when throwing in the yard, warming up or anytime they had a ball in hand. Yrs back my son was on the mound in an Bronco (11-12) All Star game, I noticed him throwing some junk, I sent word to the coach, 1 more offspeed pitch and I would pull him out of the game. I would rather see a pitching coach that teaches the change as its the second best pitch in BB next to the fastball. Seems as if lots think the more pitches a pitcher has the better its is which is totally wrong, absolute command on 2-3 pitches will go a long ways in High School ball....

[2throwrundown]

[quote name="643" post="969933" timestamp="1298384384"]
absolute command on 2-3 pitches will go a long ways in [s]High School ball[/s] baseball....
[/quote]

[rounder17]

[quote name="Bobcat101" post="969526" timestamp="1298313375"]
I was witnessed to a tragic reality. I saw many, many 10 year olds throwing curveball after curveball after curveball and I was very ashamed.

I'm not a Sports Medical Doctor, but 10 years should not be throwing curve ball. I dont the proper age but I've always been told that one should wait to teach a kid until 16 or 17.

When should you allow your son to throw the junk ball.???

I was several 10 years walking off the mound holder their arms after 50 pitches.
[/quote]
No earlier than 14.

[Bobcat101]

Those dads are killing Select baseball by killing these kids arms. Your right, a $5 trophy is worth more than a kids arm.

These are the dads that are giving the term Daddy baseball cause No professional coach would allow a kids to throw junk at that age.

At one point I counted 7-8 curveballs in a roll......  

[adminbaberuth]

Since I've never coached Select ball are their any rules concerning pitch counts at tournaments?

[espn2]

[quote name="adminbaberuth" post="969991" timestamp="1298391840"]
Since I've never coached Select ball are their any rules concerning pitch counts at tournaments?
[/quote]

Great question admin. It is my understanding that select ball has not adopted the pitch count standards of any kind. (I could be misinformed) Like Little League now has the pitch count rules in place in an attempt to stem the tide of over throwing. In my limited experience of attending a few select tournament it is very much needed. Kids (under 12) throwing 100+ pitches in a day. Throwing back to back days. At some point someone needs to step up and make some type of regulations.

I am not taking a side on the cureve ball thing. As I will not state that I am not an expert (which I'm not) but then go on to give an opion as if I am. However, some of you might find this article interesting. I think these guys would be considered experts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/sports/baseball/26score.html

[2throwrundown]

In that Article at the end Gleen Flesig was quoted saying, “I’m not saying, everyone throw the curveball,”  “I’m saying, if we’re going to prevent injuries, change the focus. [b]We should be looking at overuse.”[/b]

Thats the biggest problem in my opinion.  Some of these kids do not get much "down" time

[westend1]

I'm really curious which does more damage.  Throwing curveballs or 200-300 wiffle balls or wall balls?  Should I be ashamed for letting my 8 year old play wall ball for 2 hours?

[attackpack]

it's been awhile since i've coached select ball but from what i remember there is no pitch count for a weekend tournament.  the kid has so many innings in the weekend.  it's up to the coaches to watch pitch counts.  i have also seen several "paid" coaches call lots of curveballs. that is not restricted to daddyball i can assure you.

[bobcat89]

Here are the rules for usssa select ball

8.05.C.1 ONE DAY MAXIMUM TO PITCH THE
THE NEXT DAY: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in one (1) day and still pitch the next day.
Rule 8.05.C.1 Example: In the 7U – 14U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of three (3) innings in one (1) day and still legally pitch the next day. If the player pitches three and one-third (3 1/3) or more innings in one (1) day, the player can not legally pitch the next day.
Chart 8.05.C-1
8.05.C.2 ONE DAY MAXIMUM: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in one (1) day.
Rule 8.05.C.2 Example: In the 7U – 12U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of six (6) innings in one (1) day. The player would be ineligible to pitch the next day. Similarly, in the 13U – 14U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of seven (7) innings in one (1) day. The player would be ineligible to legally pitch the next day.
8.05.C.3 THREE DAY MAXIMUM: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in three (3) consecutive days.
Rule 8.05.C.3 Example: In the 7U – 14U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of eight 8 innings in three (3) consecutive days. This is to be interpreted as a player may legally pitch any combination of innings to equal eight 8 innings in two (2) days as long as the player doesn’t pitch more than three (3) innings the first (1st) day. Similarly, as a player may legally pitch any combination of innings to equal eight 8 innings in three (3) days as long as the player doesn’t pitch more than three (3) innings the first (1st) or second (2nd) days.
8.05.C.4 MANDATORY DAYS OF REST;
8.05.C.4(a) A player that pitches more than three (3) innings in one day MUST rest the next day.
8.05.C.4(b) A player that pitches eight 8 innings in two (2) consecutive days MUST rest the next day.

[MoFo]

I did a exit file paper for one of my Masters classes. (I am in the radiology field) it was an orthopedic imaging paper so I did it on Tommy John surgery or UCL (ulner collateral ligament) replacement surgery. What a lot of people do not realize is that while throwing the curve ball absolutely places more stress on the UCL. Studies have shown the type of pitches can contribute to injury as well, such as curve balls and sliders, but the most important factor is limiting the total number of pitches to prevent injury. Proper warm up and icing after throwing are also import.
  The VOLUME of pitches is what the main problem is in this day and age.
  So back in us "OLDER" guys era we played city ball a game or two a week or a practice or two, very seldom more that 3 or 4 events a week. BUT now days you have kids playing city league ball and select ball, and some play on multiple select teams. So it is nothing for them to leave their little league practice and head to select practice all the while chunking the tater 50-60 times per practice. Not to mention 4-6 innings on the mound at Ford Park on the weekend and then hitting the mound for another 3-6 innings at the little league park.

Plain and simple as a parent you need to police what your child is doing and decide where their arm is needed the most. Dont let them throw a hundred pitches at the Select tournament on the weekend and then turn around on Monday and let them throw another 75-85 at the little league park.

[bobcat89]

Here are rules for Nations baseball

1. Limitations of pitching are based upon recorded outs while the pitcher is on the
mound.
a. In all age groups that are scheduled for six innings, a pitcher cannot pitch more
than 18 outs in any given day.
b. In all age groups 16 and younger that are scheduled for seven innings, a pitcher
cannot pitch more than 21 outs in any given day.
c. For six-inning games, a pitcher cannot pitch more than 27 outs in three consecutive
days, regardless of game guarantee.
d. For seven-inning 16U and younger games, a pitcher cannot pitch more than 30 outs
in three consecutive days, regardless of game guarantee.
e. Any pitcher in the 16U or younger divisions that has pitched three days in a row
must rest the 4th day regardless of outs recorded.

[Bobcat101]

[quote name="BS-er" post="970959" timestamp="1298485895"]
Here are rules for Nations baseball

1. Limitations of pitching are based upon recorded outs while the pitcher is on the
mound.
a. In all age groups that are scheduled for six innings, a pitcher cannot pitch more
than 18 outs in any given day.
b. In all age groups 16 and younger that are scheduled for seven innings, a pitcher
cannot pitch more than 21 outs in any given day.
c. For six-inning games, a pitcher cannot pitch more than 27 outs in three consecutive
days, regardless of game guarantee.
d. For seven-inning 16U and younger games, a pitcher cannot pitch more than 30 outs
in three consecutive days, regardless of game guarantee.
e. Any pitcher in the 16U or younger divisions that has pitched three days in a row
must rest the 4th day regardless of outs recorded.
[/quote]

Hey, can you condense that?


To the one that made the wall ball comparison to pitching. You completely wrong. The force a kid uses to play wall ball is no where near what it takes to pitch to someone else.

[MoFo]

On the wall ball issue I have to disagree. I know I have seen on more than one occasion a kid not be able to pitch because his arm hurt from playing wall ball all the night before while his brother was playing in a game

[Guest tappedout]

Dr. Andrew's did a big speech during LL World Serie's and said that he does not see the curveball as much of a problem as the over-use that's kid's go through now with playing year round. Kid's throw 3 or 4 innings and then come back the next day and throw another 4 or 5 innings the next day. Most of these coaches don't keep pitch count's. The changeup is the money pitch if you can learn how to throw it right and be consistent with it. If you learn how to throw it right, it will move like a curveball.

[sportsman28]

There can be many factors that may hurt a pitchers arm, but the main focus we take at The Zone Baseball Academy is we are going to train our pitchers to be prepared to take on the work loads your arm goes through in a course of a season.  In our opinion especially at the older level the fastball puts more stress on your arm than does a curveball considering the velocity we train our pitchers to throw at. The faster your arm speed is the more the stress. If taught right the curveball is a safe pitch to learn, (a quarterback throws a curveball everytime he throws).  What gets a pitcher in trouble throwing a curveball is when he tries to manipulate the pitch by the snapping of the wrist.  If pitchers would learn the mechanics of PRONATION he would learn the correct mechanics of throwing every pitch. 

I would like to see more pre game warm ups of pitchers before they throw in a game or practice.  The body has to go through a vigorous wake up warm up before they even attempt to throw a ball.  This can take as long as 45 minutes if done right.  In my professional opinion the lack of preparation of the arm and body is doing more harm to pitchers than the number of pitches thrown and the curveball.  Your body has to be flexible and stable to execute a pitch without putting constraint on his arm or other areas of his body.  Ankle mobility, hip mobility, thorasic spine mobility, lumbar spine mobility, shoulder mobility, etc.  all aid in the delivery of a baseball.  Any constraint in these areas can put undue stress to a pitcher and can cause injury to the arm.  We have to do a better job of educating ourselfs as coaches to see if these areas are being addressed and we are doing all we can to protect pitchers from injury.

In closing I want evryone to know that no way am I pointing fingers at anyone.  Nor do I think I have all the answers.  I want to put as much information out there that I can and hope we can all come together as coaches to find the best ways to help our youth.  If anyone wants to see what we do to prepare pitchers I welcome you to our academy anytime.  I thought that this was a good time to share some of our ideas we use to train pitchers.  It has been very effective for us.  Thank you for allowing me a place to express opinions and ideas.

Sam Moore
Zone Baseball Academy

ps  as per pitch counts  We believe that the number of pitches per inning is more important to worry about than the total number of pitches.  And please coaches get your pitchers warmed and ready in plenty of time before entering the game. 8 pitches is not near enough to get the job done.

[adminbaberuth]

Good info Coach Moore

[westend1]

[quote name="sportsman28" post="971328" timestamp="1298530364"]
There can be many factors that may hurt a pitchers arm, but the main focus we take at The Zone Baseball Academy is we are going to train our pitchers to be prepared to take on the work loads your arm goes through in a course of a season.  In our opinion especially at the older level the fastball puts more stress on your arm than does a curveball considering the velocity we train our pitchers to throw at. The faster your arm speed is the more the stress. If taught right the curveball is a safe pitch to learn, (a quarterback throws a curveball everytime he throws).  What gets a pitcher in trouble throwing a curveball is when he tries to manipulate the pitch by the snapping of the wrist.  If pitchers would learn the mechanics of PRONATION he would learn the correct mechanics of throwing every pitch.  

I would like to see more pre game warm ups of pitchers before they throw in a game or practice.  The body has to go through a vigorous wake up warm up before they even attempt to throw a ball.  This can take as long as 45 minutes if done right.  In my professional opinion the lack of preparation of the arm and body is doing more harm to pitchers than the number of pitches thrown and the curveball.  Your body has to be flexible and stable to execute a pitch without putting constraint on his arm or other areas of his body.  Ankle mobility, hip mobility, thorasic spine mobility, lumbar spine mobility, shoulder mobility, etc.  all aid in the delivery of a baseball.  Any constraint in these areas can put undue stress to a pitcher and can cause injury to the arm.  We have to do a better job of educating ourselfs as coaches to see if these areas are being addressed and we are doing all we can to protect pitchers from injury.

In closing I want evryone to know that no way am I pointing fingers at anyone.  Nor do I think I have all the answers.  I want to put as much information out there that I can and hope we can all come together as coaches to find the best ways to help our youth.  If anyone wants to see what we do to prepare pitchers I welcome you to our academy anytime.  I thought that this was a good time to share some of our ideas we use to train pitchers.  It has been very effective for us.  Thank you for allowing me a place to express opinions and ideas.

Sam Moore
Zone Baseball Academy

ps  as per pitch counts  We believe that the number of pitches per inning is more important to worry about than the total number of pitches.  And please coaches get your pitchers warmed and ready in plenty of time before entering the game. 8 pitches is not near enough to get the job done.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sounds great, in theory.  In the pros, college and highschool, you have bullpens and pitchers who can warm up when things start going south.  How do you apply that to league/select ball. Usually, your next pitcher is playing first or short when you decide a change needs to be made.  You make the change, and they give the new pitcher about a minute to throw, because they have to keep the games on schedule.  

















[/quote]

[rounder17]

You need to take your next pitcher out of the game the inning before, or on your first mound visit during the inning. Then the next pitcher should have plenty if time to get ready.

[westend1]

Interesting proposal, but I have seen lots of youth baseball and I don't think i have ever seen a coach pull his best shortstop from the game and let him go warm up while he watches to see if his pitcher is going to get out of a jam.  It just doesn't happen.  Maybe it should, but the only way it will is if a new rule is written requiring it.

[sportsman04]

Coaches and parents should remember that velocity is not always the answer.  Fast and violent wind ups and mechanics open the door for bad timing, balance and injury.  You must be in control of your body at all times.  With young kids, as well as older, a smooth, well-timed and balanced delivery is the key to success.  In this area, to much emphasis is being put on "how hard we can throw" at a young age, directly resulting in injury.  Mechanics should be put first.  As kids grow, they will fill out, become stronger, and thats when the velocity will increase naturally because they already have the foundation of proper technique.  In regards to the curveball, you do not need it at a young age.  There are ways to make the ball "wiggle" without throwing the curveball, slider etc., you just need to learn it from someone who knows how to teach it properly.  Take a big leaguer for example.  Watch Justin Verlander when he has his best outings, he is 92-95 hitting spots and at the knees.  Even though he can throw 100+ whenever he wants, thats usually when he gets hurt.  He tries to put everything he has behind it, his mechanics get out of sync, the ball elevates and thats when he gets hurt.  Why do you think Maddox, Glavine, Moyer, Pettite, Lee, Hammels, Haladay etc. have long lasting and successful careers without the over-powering fastball?  Because they have proper mechanics and location, location, location!  Remember, you can only become the best pitcher you can be when you realize what kind of pitcher you are.  If we dont have that mid-90's fastball or that cooperstown breaking ball, we have to maximize what we have with location, and we will have just as much or more success than those that do.  As parents and coaches, lets keep all of the youths best interest at heart and provide a promising future for them!  We just opened our doors to our state of the art facility here in Port Neches.  Athletes Sports Training, where all of our trainers have collegiate or professional experience.  Bryan Bost, Allen Harrington, Brian Sanchez, Jay Stone, Josh Gray, Justin Walker, Lauren Parker (softball) just to name a few.  If you would like to see what we have to offer as far as training, you are more than welcome to sit in on a session and let us know what you think.  We hope to see you and your Athlete very soon!
                        Allen Harrington @ Athletes Sports Training    2350 Nall, Port Neches