12 Men in the Huddle

[TXKBear]

A controversial no-call in the Brenham-PNG game last night regarding this rule.  Can someone with officiating experience answer this:  Is the penalty called for breaking the huddle with 12 men in the huddle or 12 men on the field.  At one point Brenham broke the huddle with 11, but a 12th man was trying to enter the game.  He turned around to come off the field and the Brenham coaches called time out.  The PNG fans & coaches were irate that a time-out should not be allowed to avoid the 5-yard penalty. 

Granted, I was on the Brenham side and saw what happened.  The 12th man was never in the huddle, but I'm sure the other side saw what appeared to be an extra player leaving the field.  While the officials' call did not surprise me, I realize I am not exactly clear about the specifics of the rule.  Can somebody tell me if this was an infraction or not?

BTW, I was very impressed with the contingent of fans from PNG!

[Klein Bearkats]

Team has to break the huddle with 12 men for it to be a violation.  The intent of the rule is to prevent offenses from attempting to confuse defenses.  A situation where a player is confused and runs on the field and then back off realizing he is not in the play is not a foul.  Conceivably, A team can have 30 men on the field as long as only 11 are legally on the field at the snap. 

[Hornet]

[quote name="Klein Bearkats" post="714295" timestamp="1258818628"]
Team has to break the huddle with 12 men for it to be a violation.  The intent of the rule is to prevent offenses from attempting to confuse defenses.  A situation where a player is confused and runs on the field and then back off realizing he is not in the play is not a foul.  Conceivably, A team can have 30 men on the field as long as only 11 are legally on the field at the snap. 
[/quote]

Thanks

[TXKBear]

[quote name="Klein Bearkats" post="714295" timestamp="1258818628"]
Team has to break the huddle with 12 men for it to be a violation.  The intent of the rule is to prevent offenses from attempting to confuse defenses.  A situation where a player is confused and runs on the field and then back off realizing he is not in the play is not a foul.  Conceivably, A team can have 30 men on the field as long as only 11 are legally on the field at the snap. 
[/quote]

Thanks, Klein.  That's what I thought.

[PNG Proud]

[quote name="Klein Bearkats" post="714295" timestamp="1258818628"]
Team has to break the huddle with 12 men for it to be a violation.  The intent of the rule is to prevent offenses from attempting to confuse defenses.  A situation where a player is confused and runs on the field and then back off realizing he is not in the play is not a foul.  Conceivably, A team can have 30 men on the field as long as only 11 are legally on the field at the snap. 
[/quote]





If that's the case, then why was PNG penalized twice this yr. FOR THE EXACT SAME PLAY?  I mean, it was almost a carbon copy of last night.  This is probably why the PNG coaches were so irrate.  Since it had happened to us previously.
Although, I don't see a problem with the situation either, these officials need to all get on the same page.
Those guys last night seemed pretty confused at times.

[localsports]

During the PN-G & Central game PN-G had two players in motion at the same time and was allowed to call time out to avoid a penalty (Central coaches & fans was noy happy), so ---- happens.

[indnfan]

It might be because PNG often lines up in a no huddle. Just throwing that out there cause I really don't know.

[PNG Proud]

You're right Localsports.  That should have been flagged......................my point exactly.
What's strange is, that quite often it's on the real obvious plays too.

[hj_hawk_60]

[quote name="localsports" post="714666" timestamp="1258840249"]
During the PN-G & Central game PN-G had two players in motion at the same time and was allowed to call time out to avoid a penalty (Central coaches & fans was noy happy), so ---- happens.
[/quote]

putting two players in motion is not illegal... you can put 5 players in motion as long as everyone comes set for 1 second before the ball is snapped

[API steve]

That man was in the huddle, they called time out because of it. The officials were terrible, that wasn't the only thing they did wrong.

[TXKBear]

[quote name="API steve" post="714776" timestamp="1258847829"]
That man was in the huddle, they called time out because of it. The officials were terrible, that wasn't the only thing they did wrong.
[/quote]

Thanks, Steve.  My question has been answered because I know exactly where that player was.  You obviously do not.

[NDNTime]

TXKBear, I think you might just have the situation all wrong.  Its not whether the huddle gets "broken" with 12 players, but when a sub comes in for one player, the other player must immediately exit the playing field.  Generally, the officials give you 3-5 seconds for the exchange, but Brenham took a lot longer than that to have that 12th player exit the field.  Brenham then called a timeout because they knew they screwed up.  The officials let the timeout stand and not penalize the cubs.  Too bad the rules state that a timeout cannot negate breaking the huddle with 12 players.

Of course, I don't think this was one of those so-called "controversial no-calls."  PNG defense shut down Brenham on the very next play and Brenham had to punt I believe.  There were a plethora of other "no-calls" that were blantant.  But I understand that when a receiver runs wide open over the middle and gets tackled by the DB before the ball gets there is a no-call, or why a DB can be pulling on the back of the jersey of the wideout the entire way down the field only to turn the wide receiver before the ball arrives is a no-call.

[API steve]

You could not any more right NDNtime. Those are just a few examples. They will get what is coming to them......

[Thunderlicious]

haha..that was a good one. the ball was not only there, it was maybe half way there. it wasnt like it was a bang bang play. some really bad officiating. Ive said before , Im kind of an innocent bystander here and i'll say it was the worst officiating Ive ever seen in over 40 years. I guess everyone has their off days though. I saw about 4 calls or lack there of..that came in key moments of this game that i think could have had direct effects on this outcome. You never know, because it may not have meant anything, howvever it does make you ask the question...WHERE DO THEY GET THESE GUYS? Is there some sort of prerequisits to being a high school official? Is there some sort of class they attend? Who is in charge of seeing that they know what they are doing? When it's playoffs do they get the best of the best? Cause these guys....and one in particular was 100% clueless.

[Guest gladiator2]

Kind of funny I recorded the replay of the game and I see 12 men in the huddle. Get the facts straight.

[localsports]

More than one player CAN NOT be in motion at the same time.

[oldrock]

[quote name="Thunderlicious" post="715640" timestamp="1258912973"]
haha..that was a good one. the ball was not only there, it was maybe half way there. it wasnt like it was a bang bang play. some really bad officiating. Ive said before , Im kind of an innocent bystander here and i'll say it was the worst officiating Ive ever seen in over 40 years. I guess everyone has their off days though. I saw about 4 calls or lack there of..that came in key moments of this game that i think could have had direct effects on this outcome. You never know, because it may not have meant anything, howvever it does make you ask the question...WHERE DO THEY GET THESE GUYS? Is there some sort of prerequisits to being a high school official? Is there some sort of class they attend? Who is in charge of seeing that they know what they are doing? When it's playoffs do they get the best of the best? Cause these guys....and one in particular was 100% clueless.
[/quote]

The two head coaches agree on which officiating crew to use.

[MrUmp1]

[quote name="Thunderlicious" post="715640" timestamp="1258912973"]
haha..that was a good one. the ball was not only there, it was maybe half way there. it wasnt like it was a bang bang play. some really bad officiating. Ive said before , Im kind of an innocent bystander here and i'll say it was the worst officiating Ive ever seen in over 40 years. I guess everyone has their off days though. I saw about 4 calls or lack there of..that came in key moments of this game that i think could have had direct effects on this outcome. You never know, because it may not have meant anything, howvever it does make you ask the question...WHERE DO THEY GET THESE GUYS? Is there some sort of prerequisits to being a high school official? Is there some sort of class they attend? Who is in charge of seeing that they know what they are doing? When it's playoffs do they get the best of the best? Cause these guys....and one in particular was 100% clueless.
[/quote]

If you think it is bad this year.. wait untill the UIL takes over officiating. In fact if the 2 schools went to the UIL for officials in this game, the UIL is already assigning people from chapters to try and influence certain chapters to promote registering with the UIL to officiate next year. UIL cares more about getting rid of TASO than quality of officials.

[Thunderlicious]

you have got to be kidding me??? Right??

[akifan94]

[quote name="localsports" post="715691" timestamp="1258919020"]
More than one player CAN NOT be in motion at the same time.
[/quote]

correct...but more than one player can shift and reset.

[MrUmp1]

[quote name="Thunderlicious" post="715821" timestamp="1258929403"]
you have got to be kidding me??? Right??
[/quote]

I'm not kidding if your asking me. I know coaches that ask for a certain chapter and UIL sent the game to another chapter to play politics. I spent part of last weekend in Austin at a meeting over the UIL takeover.

[localsports]

You are correct....... but this was in-motion and not a shift.

[teeboan]

[quote name="API steve" post="714776" timestamp="1258847829"]
That man was in the huddle, they called time out because of it. The officials were terrible, that wasn't the only thing they did wrong.
[/quote]

You may have 12 in the huddle - you may have 20 in the huddle..you Can't beak with more than 11. As long as the extras leave a few seconds before the huddle is broke there is no foul. Two men in motion is not a foul either. Two men in motion AT THE SNAP is. Time called  before the snap is a pretty heads up move by the coach.

[NDNTime]

[quote name="teeboan" post="716114" timestamp="1258988552"]
[quote author=API steve link=topic=62761.msg714776#msg714776 date=1258847829]
That man was in the huddle, they called time out because of it. The officials were terrible, that wasn't the only thing they did wrong.
[/quote]

You may have 12 in the huddle - you may have 20 in the huddle..you Can't beak with more than 11. As long as the extras leave a few seconds before the huddle is broke there is no foul. [/quote]

Incorrect.  You may have more than 11 on the field if you aren't in a huddle, but of course, those players must exit before the snap of the ball.  For instance, you may have 22 guys on the field at one time when switching from offense to punt team.  BUT, those same 22 players CANNOT be in the huddle together.  If you have more than 11 guys in a huddle communicating with each other or communicating with the ref for that matter, then it is too many men in the huddle.  If an offensive substitution comes in, then the player being replaced must leave the huddle within 2-3 seconds of being replaced.

[hj_hawk_60]

These rulings are from the UIL rulebook


ARTICLE 2. A legal substitute may replace a player or fill a player vacancy
provided none of the following restrictions is violated:

c. An incoming legal substitute must enter the field of play directly from his
team area, and a substitute, player or departing player must depart at the
sideline nearest his team area and proceed to his team area. A departing
player must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A
departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds,
after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately.
Team A may not break its huddle with 12 or more players (A.R. 3-5-2-II-
VIII, A.R. 9-1-5-V-VII and A.R. 9-2-2-IV) (dead-ball foul) [S7 and S22].

So according to this, i think that PNG has every right to be upset with the no call...because if i am reading this right then regardless of huddle or no huddle you may not have more than 11 on the field unless they are in the process of switching which they must leave within 3 seconds of being replaced.

Two Players in Motion

4. One player may be in motion, but not in motion toward his opponent’s
goal line. A lineman may not be in motion at the snap. Other players
must be stationary in their positions without movement of the feet,
body, head or arms [S20] (A.R. 7-1-3-I, III and XII-XIV).

ARTICLE 4. a. If a snap is preceded by a huddle or shift, all players of the
offensive team must come to an absolute stop and remain stationary in their
positions, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms, for at least one
full second before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-4-I) [S20].
b. It is not intended that Rule 7-1-4-a should prohibit smooth, rhythmical
shifts if properly executed. A smooth cadence shift or unhurried motion
is not an infraction. However, it is the responsibility of an offensive
player who moves before the snap to do so in a manner that in no way
simulates the beginning of a play. After the ball is ready for play and
all players are in scrimmage formation, no offensive player shall make
a quick, jerky movement before the snap, including but not limited to
(A.R. 7-1-4-II-IV):
1. A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick,
jerky motion in any direction [S19].
2. The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks [S19].
3. The quarterback “chucking’’ his hands at the snapper, flexing his
elbows under the snapper, jerking his head or dropping his shoulders
quickly just before the snap [S19].
4. A player, before the snap, simulating receiving the ball by “chucking’’
his hands toward the snapper or quarterback or making any quick,
jerky movement that simulates the beginning of a play [S19].

I was not there so i did not see the play, but as long as both players came set before the snap of the ball, there is nothing wrong with it..