The Biggio/Bagwell debate

[Cat22]

Ok, I think we have discussed this before on here, but since the season has started again lets get everyones opinion.

Are Biggio and Bagwell hall of famers?

[Ruckdad]

I think so.  Anybody that understands the way the game is played understands what these two have done in their respective careers and the importance they have had in the game.  For a significant period of time, each of them were in the first tier of names you would mention when talking about the elite players in the game.

[formerpirate]

Biggio is a HOFer, but Bagwell is not. He had some good years but he just wasn't HOF caliber to me. The HOF is getting watered down too much, they will let almost anyone who had a decent career in. If Bagwell would have hit 500 HRs, he is definately in. I think he falls just short, but he may get in after a few years on the ballot. Biggio is a first ballot once he reaches 3000 hits.

[Cat22]

Good points pirate.  Here is a comparison of stats on HOFer Kirby Puckett and Bagwell.

Puckett 12 seasons    Bagwell 15 seasons

G-1783                      G-2150

AB-7244                    AB-7797

R-1071                      R-1574

H-2304                      H-2314

2B-414                      2B-488

3B-57                        3B-32

HR-207                      HR-449

RBI-1085                  RBI-1529

BB-450                      BB-1401

SO-965                    SO-1558

SB-134                      SB-202

CS-76                      CS-78

BA-.318                    BA-.297 

[formerpirate]

Yeah, Kirby Puckett also won multiple Gold Glove awards and I think that helped his case. I like Bagwell, but he struck out way too much and was only a mediocre defensive player.

[bronco1]

I agree with formerpirate, Biggio first ballot. Bagwell did some good things but I think his career was tainted his last few years. He seemed real whiney and grouchy but mostly non-productive. Biggio was and is a class act.

[2throwrundown]

Yeah, Kirby Puckett also won multiple Gold Glove awards and I think that helped his case. I like Bagwell, but he struck out way too much and was only a mediocre defensive player.

Mediocre defensive player?  For the better part of a decade of baseball Jeff Bagwell was the premier 1bagger in the game along with Big Hurt.  Always near the top in BB's, Runs, RBI, and OPS.  Don't know if he will be a first ballot or not, but IMO deserves and will get inducted into the Hall of Fame.  I don't understand how anyone can try and discredit his contributions to not only the Astros but the game of baseball.  Just my 2 cents worth.

[Ruckdad]

Exactly, an MVP and A ROY and perhaps the best player at his position for a decade.  On top of that, he was an excellent base runner, excellent first baseman (just ask Ken Caminiti - or yoou should have asked him), and a heady player.  Add to that he played in the greatest pitchers park since the Polo Grounds and I say he gets in.  Not a first ballot guy, but gets in.  Adding Jeff Bagwell does not water down the Hall of Fame.

[bobcatfan]

The question was are Biggio/Bagwell HOFers.  I'll take the angle of what i think the voters will probably do.  Biggio will get in on the 1st ballot based on how he compares to other 2nd basemen.  Heres what i've heard about Bagwell.  I heard Rob Neyer (a baseball guy for ESPN whos opinion i respect as much as anyone) say that Bagwell is a top 10 1st baseman and is deserving of the hall of fame.  Most other analyst i've heard will say that he is a close call and some put him in there. Personally, i think he'll eventually get in maybe 3-5 years after he comes up for election.  I think there will be a lot of sentiment from the general public to put him in because Bagwell and Biggio did it together for several years and everyone considers him a very classy guy and he stayed with the same organization his whole career and i think that counts for something. Dont yall agree?

[formerpirate]

Mediocre defensive player?  For the better part of a decade of baseball Jeff Bagwell was the premier 1bagger in the game along with Big Hurt.  Always near the top in BB's, Runs, RBI, and OPS.  Don't know if he will be a first ballot or not, but IMO deserves and will get inducted into the Hall of Fame.  I don't understand how anyone can try and discredit his contributions to not only the Astros but the game of baseball.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Yeah, he won 1 Gold Glove in 15 seasons. Like I said he was an average defensive player, not bad but not outstanding. I think what may eventually get him in is his 202 stolen bases, but it will take a few years. Although nothing has ever been linked to Bagwell, many voters may link him to the "steroid era" which also may hurt his chances early. Like I said he will get in eventually. IMO he wasn't a baseball great (IE: Mantle, Ruth, Ryan, Ripken), but he was a very good player.

[formerpirate]

Exactly, an MVP and A ROY and perhaps the best player at his position for a decade.  On top of that, he was an excellent base runner, excellent first baseman (just ask Ken Caminiti - or yoou should have asked him), and a heady player.  Add to that he played in the greatest pitchers park since the Polo Grounds and I say he gets in.  Not a first ballot guy, but gets in.  Adding Jeff Bagwell does not water down the Hall of Fame.

Well then if a ROY and MVP award get you into the HOF, do you think Fred Lynn should be a HOFer? Even though his stats were not HOF caliber:

In his 17-year career, Lynn batted .283 with 1111 RBI, 306 HR, 1960 hits, 1063 runs, 388 doubles, 43 triples, and 72 stolen bases in 1969 games

[Ruckdad]

I didn't say that he should get in based on the MVP or ROY.  But his entire body of work gets him in I think.  The fact that he was one of the best players in the game for about ten years gets him in the HOF.

Regarding your Gold Glove award argument.  Adam Everett has yet to win a Gold Glove, is he not a great defensive shortstop.  Ryne Sandberg won too many, Brad Ausmus should not have won his last year.  More often than not, the Gold Glove is a sham.

[formerpirate]

I didn't say that he should get in based on the MVP or ROY.  But his entire body of work gets him in I think.  The fact that he was one of the best players in the game for about ten years gets him in the HOF.

Regarding your Gold Glove award argument.  Adam Everett has yet to win a Gold Glove, is he not a great defensive shortstop.  Ryne Sandberg won too many, Brad Ausmus should not have won his last year.  More often than not, the Gold Glove is a sham.

So is the HOF only about hitting or is it all aspects of the game? Kirby Puckett had a lot of Gold Gloves, I think that is why he got in w/o the big HR total, that is what brought up the Gold Glove argument. If the Gold Glove is a sham, than you have to discount many of the other major awards. Another reason I think Bagwell will not get in immediately is because he struck out over 1500 times. That is an average of about 100 strike outs a year. Like I said, Bagwell will get in, just not in the first few years.

[Hupernikomen]

Bagwell was a very good defensive first baseman.  ROY and MVP along with his stats will be enough to get him in the Hall.  He won't receive near the votes that Biggio does.

[BUNA95]

Both will make it

[Guest Diva]

The question was are Biggio/Bagwell HOFers.  I'll take the angle of what i think the voters will probably do.  Biggio will get in on the 1st ballot based on how he compares to other 2nd basemen.  Heres what i've heard about Bagwell.  I heard Rob Neyer (a baseball guy for ESPN whos opinion i respect as much as anyone) say that Bagwell is a top 10 1st baseman and is deserving of the hall of fame.  Most other analyst i've heard will say that he is a close call and some put him in there. Personally, i think he'll eventually get in maybe 3-5 years after he comes up for election.  I think there will be a lot of sentiment from the general public to put him in because Bagwell and Biggio did it together for several years and everyone considers him a very classy guy and he stayed with the same organization his whole career and i think that counts for something. Dont yall agree?

Very well said.  Good post!

[bobcatfan]

Thank you

[Ty Cobb]

Biggio gets in on the 1st ballot.  Bagwell goes in sometime later.

[jmspears3]

Both will get in Biggio 1st ballot, Bagwell will also get in maybe not on 1st ballot.

These guys have done so much for the Astros that you can't mention one without the other.