165plus pitches?

[Wheel House]

Sounds to me like someone has a recycled football coach running the baseball program. Suck it up, no pain, no gain, win! win! win!, and all the other football cliche's.     

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="baseball25" post="1188721" timestamp="1330529644"]
http://www.boydsworld.com/breadcrumbs/2005_ncaa_pap.html

I am 24th on that list and you know what my arm kills me everyday from the wear and tear from that 2005 yr and I was never the same in 2006, plus I need to get my elbow cleaned out because I hurt every single day!!!
[/quote]

Sorry to hear that  you were injured, but there are probably many people on that list that never were. Tim Linsecum is one example.

All I ever said is that pitch count alone is overrated as an injury prevention tool. A pitcher could get tired at 80 pitches and could be at risk for an injury while another pitcher could go into the 120s+ and be fine. Then there are still others that will get injured regardless of what you do. The pitch count is just a number, there are alot more important things to pay attention to.

[Guest basketball25]

Trey Hearne on that list was one of the best pitchers in the nation that yr and he has already had 2 surgeys, and I know about 14 more players on that list that has had surgey!!

[Guest basketball25]

Boston Red sox wouldn't let clay go over 110 pitchers through out his whole minor league career!!!

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="baseball25" post="1188737" timestamp="1330530824"]
Trey Hearne on that list was one of the best pitchers in the nation that yr and he has already had 2 surgeys, and I know about 14 more players on that list that has had surgey!!
[/quote]

Just because they had surgery dosen't mean its beacuse they threw too many ptiches in one game. Pitching is an unnatural act as I'm sure you know, some players will get injured and need surgery regardless of what precautions you take. There are alot of things that could of contributed to thier injuries like not recovering properly or not getting enough rest, bad mechanics, and whole number of other things. Some injuries such as Tommy john come on sudden sometimes on one pitch, then other injures such as labrum tears can be built over years of throwing. It would be difficult to find anybody who has played baseball for a significant amount of time that doesn't have atleast some labrum damage. I myself just had a tear of the gleniod labrum that was repaired in december. The doctors said that the injury was built up over years of overhead activity.

All I said is that pitch count totals for 1 game are overrated. over pitching a pitcher over the course of entire season is definitely going to lead to arm problems.

[Guest basketball25]

to many pitches this early in the season, I been around the best ball you can play and been there and done it!! its to many pitches this early on in the season its just that  simple!!!

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="baseball25" post="1188778" timestamp="1330532797"]
to many pitches this early in the season, I been around the best ball you can play and been there and done it!! its to many pitches this early on in the season its just that  simple!!!
[/quote]

So have I ;) alot has changed in how we understand the arm since you played. In 2004 a prominent doctor described labrum tears as "baseball's most gruesome injury", now there is near a 70% chance you will make a full recovery.

Again all I said is that pitch count alone will not prevent injury. I don't disagree that it was probably a bad decision to throw the pitcher that much. However if the pitcher has played year round, is a good athlete,  maintained good mechanics throughout the game, and properly rest and recovers he will probably be fine.

[Guest basketball25]

its february, there isn't a important game in feb!!! This just shows that the coach really doesn't care about his player so he is just going to abuse him!!! I am fine with throwing this many pitches in mid part of district games and in playoffs but not in feb!! I had the larbrum surgey and I got it done by the best  dr. james andrews so I know all about the labrum but the point is its February

[sport1971]

Guys this is simple...every reputable arm specialist, coach, pro ect...all say pitch count is very important. Not only at the little league level, but High School as well.  165 pitches one time may not hurt a kid or it could. I know in today's day and time, coaches are being pushed to win...job depends on it! Districts and coaches need to know it's not worth hurting a kid! There is always going to be the exception to the rule...but as a general rule 165 pitches on a kids arm is not a good thing and should be questioned by a kids parents. I can tell you this...My kid is a lefty with a strong arm and has the potential for next level stuff...so 165 pitches would not go over real well with me.  Next level or not, you have to ask yourself: Is it worth?

[Guest basketball25]

its ok to throw that many in a playoff game or mid district time, but its not ok if you do it 3 or 4 times during the season, because its going to take a toll on your arm sooner or later, here is a good article
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="sport1971" post="1188875" timestamp="1330538028"]
Guys this is simple...every reputable arm specialist, coach, pro ect...all say pitch count is very important. Not only at the little league level, but High School as well.  165 pitches one time may not hurt a kid or it could. I know in today's day and time, coaches are being pushed to win...job depends on it! Districts and coaches need to know it's not worth hurting a kid! There is always going to be the exception to the rule...but as a general rule 165 pitches on a kids arm is not a good thing and should be questioned by a kids parents. I can tell you this...My kid is a lefty with a strong arm and has the potential for next level stuff...so 165 pitches [b]would not go over real [/b] [b]well with me. [/b]  Next level or not, you have to ask yourself: Is it worth?
[/quote]

Well said.

Would not go over at all with me.

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="baseball25" post="1188877" timestamp="1330538215"]
its ok to throw that many in a playoff game or mid district time, but its not ok if you do it 3 or 4 times during the season, because its going to take a toll on your arm sooner or later, here is a good article
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938
[/quote]

Quote from the article " More pitchers are on the disabled list today than ever before. It's a paradox: The less they throw, the more often they get hurt."

So pitchers are throwing less than ever before, but they are getting hurt more. Hmm maybe they shouldn't be relying on pitch counts.

[Guest basketball25]

lol lol, I already said I wouldn't care if a pitcher threw that many in a big game!! but its feb right now and there isn't a big game to make your pitcher throw that many pitches this early thats what I am trying to say, if he lets the pitcher throw that many pitches now he is going to abuse that kid and he for one could careless about the kid

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="baseball25" post="1189011" timestamp="1330546867"]
lol lol, I already said I wouldn't care if a pitcher threw that many in a big game!! but its feb right now and there isn't a big game to make your pitcher throw that many pitches this early thats what I am trying to say, if he lets the pitcher throw that many pitches now he is going to abuse that kid and he for one could careless about the kid
[/quote]

It was just a general statement. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular.

[softball2011]

[quote name="falconfanatic" post="1188981" timestamp="1330545805"]
[quote author=baseball25 link=topic=96866.msg1188877#msg1188877 date=1330538215]
its ok to throw that many in a playoff game or mid district time, but its not ok if you do it 3 or 4 times during the season, because its going to take a toll on your arm sooner or later, here is a good article
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938
[/quote]


Quote from the article " More pitchers are on the disabled list today than ever before. It's a paradox: The less they throw, the more often they get hurt."

So pitchers are throwing less than ever before, but they are getting hurt more. Hmm maybe they shouldn't be relying on pitch counts.
[/quote]
Lots of those injuries, and I agree there are a lot of them aren't necessarily overuse related like:  ligaments and tendons in the shoulder and elbow obviously are. 
Lots of pitchers are spending more time getting stronger for obvious reasons and not as much time working the pitching related motions.  You hear more about muscle injuries like obliques, back muscles, etc.  Their bodies can't take the torque that their strength and mechanics can generate.  It seems with emphasis on pitch count, it seems to suggest less work on pitching or even work in general which I don't believe is the point.  The point being to reduce the number of needless hardcore repetitions on your arm which has proven to do damage and continue to do damage if not given enough time to recover.  Wouldn't it be nice to know that magic total number of throws each arm had and you could ration them over what ever career God intended for it to have???  It just seems a waste in the scheme of things to "not" use common sense and attempt to preserve one of God's gifts "an electrifying arm" so that it may be used for as long as possible, providing one with a higher education and perhaps a living not to mention hours of spectator enjoyment. 

I do agree however that it is a paradox, but still not worth not trying to do right by these young men.  I just think coaches shouldn't ignore it.

[Guest hottestbats]

If pitch count was not that big of a deal than would one of the top arm specialist in the world reccommend LL to start limiting pitches in a game?

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="bullwinkle" post="1189085" timestamp="1330551142"]
If pitch count was not that big of a deal than would one of the top arm specialist in the world reccommend LL to start limiting pitches in a game?
[/quote]

LL is different. The arm of a 12 year old is not mature enough or strong enough to throw 100+ pitches.

[sport1971]

[quote name="Sportsfan1968" post="1189057" timestamp="1330549080"]
[quote author=falconfanatic link=topic=96866.msg1188981#msg1188981 date=1330545805]
[quote author=baseball25 link=topic=96866.msg1188877#msg1188877 date=1330538215]
its ok to throw that many in a playoff game or mid district time, but its not ok if you do it 3 or 4 times during the season, because its going to take a toll on your arm sooner or later, here is a good article
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938
[/quote]


Quote from the article " More pitchers are on the disabled list today than ever before. It's a paradox: The less they throw, the more often they get hurt."

So pitchers are throwing less than ever before, but they are getting hurt more. Hmm maybe they shouldn't be relying on pitch counts.
[/quote]
Lots of those injuries, and I agree there are a lot of them aren't necessarily overuse related like:  ligaments and tendons in the shoulder and elbow obviously are. 
Lots of pitchers are spending more time getting stronger for obvious reasons and not as much time working the pitching related motions.  You hear more about muscle injuries like obliques, back muscles, etc.  Their bodies can't take the torque that their strength and mechanics can generate.  It seems with emphasis on pitch count, it seems to suggest less work on pitching or even work in general which I don't believe is the point.  The point being to reduce the number of needless hardcore repetitions on your arm which has proven to do damage and continue to do damage if not given enough time to recover.  Wouldn't it be nice to know that magic total number of throws each arm had and you could ration them over what ever career God intended for it to have???  It just seems a waste in the scheme of things to "not" use common sense and attempt to preserve one of God's gifts "an electrifying arm" so that it may be used for as long as possible, providing one with a higher education and perhaps a living not to mention hours of spectator enjoyment. 

I do agree however that it is a paradox, but still not worth not trying to do right by these young men.  I just think coaches shouldn't ignore it.
[/quote]


It is several things that can make or break a pitching arm. Strength, flexibility, mechanics and usage.  To make it one has to have the right cocktail of all four. For you non-adult beverage folks, that would mean the right mix.  To much of one and not enough of the other sends things out of balance and arms are at risk of injury.  We can control the mechanics and usage...and increase  strength as well as flexibility, but the construction and expiration date are somewhat a wild card in the mix.  Not to go on and on, bottom line we need Coaches and Parents to give special attention the mix and not just the trophy.

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="sport1971" post="1189087" timestamp="1330551360"]
[quote author=Sportsfan1968 link=topic=96866.msg1189057#msg1189057 date=1330549080]
[quote author=falconfanatic link=topic=96866.msg1188981#msg1188981 date=1330545805]
[quote author=baseball25 link=topic=96866.msg1188877#msg1188877 date=1330538215]
its ok to throw that many in a playoff game or mid district time, but its not ok if you do it 3 or 4 times during the season, because its going to take a toll on your arm sooner or later, here is a good article
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938
[/quote]


Quote from the article " More pitchers are on the disabled list today than ever before. It's a paradox: The less they throw, the more often they get hurt."

So pitchers are throwing less than ever before, but they are getting hurt more. Hmm maybe they shouldn't be relying on pitch counts.
[/quote]
Lots of those injuries, and I agree there are a lot of them aren't necessarily overuse related like:  ligaments and tendons in the shoulder and elbow obviously are. 
Lots of pitchers are spending more time getting stronger for obvious reasons and not as much time working the pitching related motions.  You hear more about muscle injuries like obliques, back muscles, etc.  Their bodies can't take the torque that their strength and mechanics can generate.  It seems with emphasis on pitch count, it seems to suggest less work on pitching or even work in general which I don't believe is the point.  The point being to reduce the number of needless hardcore repetitions on your arm which has proven to do damage and continue to do damage if not given enough time to recover.  Wouldn't it be nice to know that magic total number of throws each arm had and you could ration them over what ever career God intended for it to have???  It just seems a waste in the scheme of things to "not" use common sense and attempt to preserve one of God's gifts "an electrifying arm" so that it may be used for as long as possible, providing one with a higher education and perhaps a living not to mention hours of spectator enjoyment. 

I do agree however that it is a paradox, but still not worth not trying to do right by these young men.  I just think coaches shouldn't ignore it.
[/quote]


It is several things that can make or break a pitching arm. Strength, flexibility, mechanics and usage.  To make it one has to have the right cocktail of all four. For you non-adult beverage folks, that would mean the right mix.  To much of one and not enough of the other sends things out of balance and arms are at risk of injury.  We can control the mechanics and usage...and increase  strength as well as flexibility, but the construction and expiration date are somewhat a wild card in the mix.  Not to go on and on, bottom line we need Coaches and Parents to give special attention the mix and not just the trophy.
[/quote]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^
Very well said.

[REALIST 05]

If the kid has worked year round throwing constantly with the right tools and coaching and his mechanics look good and stay strong throughout the game and properly recovers what's the big deal If yours arms in shape?

[westend1]

[size=14pt]165[/size]  Are you kidding?

[mustang4life]

I think  some of these young kids are hurting themselves by how hard they lift and workout.  My son was going to a throwing coach and some of the things they did will surely hurt their arms eventually.  165 pitches. If you throw 165 pitches in a game , you are not doing that well in the game. To me 165 pitches in any game for a pitcher is too much!!!

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="mustang4life" post="1189240" timestamp="1330568365"]
I think  some of these young kids are hurting themselves by how hard they lift and workout.  My son was going to a throwing coach and some of the things they did will surely hurt their arms eventually.  165 pitches. [b]If you throw 165 pitches in a game , you are not doing that well in the game[/b]. To me 165 pitches in any game for a pitcher is too much!!!
[/quote]


Bingo ! We have a winner ! 165/7 innings = 23.57 per....not good at all, especially over 7 innings.

[BigHawk]

I can speak from experience when I say that overwork can kill a player. I'm a senior at Hardin-Jefferson and because of overwork my freshman year, I had severe nerve damage within my elbow causing me to miss an entire year of pitching my junior year and have surgery this past summer. Also because of overwork my velocity may be only 3 mph faster than it was my freshman year. At my best these days I look at 83-86. (I threw 83 as a freshman for baseball factory). What i'm saying is the kid should have known better than to let a coach push him to 165 pitches in a game. Not only is it a poor coaching decision, but at some point the kid has to stand up and say he's done. I was unable to do so and paid for it dearly

[pickle]

First things first, everyone needs to remember that a pitch count is only a number.  The majority of people seem to swear by the 100 pitch, pitch count.  Why?  Who decides 100 pitches is the limit?  Who can tell a pitcher when they get to 100 pitches they are done? What if the pitcher is in great shape and can go another 20-30 pitches?  What if the pitcher should have quit throwing at pitch number 63 or pitch number 81?  That number is under the magical 100 mark so surely no damage could be done to a player, right.  Of course not.  It depends on the player and every player is different.  Again, a pitch count is only a number so don't get so caught up with it. 

Next, some of the problem today is the overuse of pitchers.  Do I mean overuse in a game?  Maybe, but let's think about what these kids do today.  How many pitchers can you name that play high school ball then go to some type of pitching coach on the side?  I'm willing to bet that everyone that reads this knows at least 5 people that pitch for their high school and then go to some other type of training.  Is that extra training considered when we bring up the term, overuse or is that term only saved for the general high school coach?  I'm willing to bet the high school coach knows a little more about the use of their pitchers and their players since they see them everyday.  Where a pitching coach on the side, only sees the kid a few times a week.  I will give you an example of what I'm talking about.  Let's say Joe pitcher throws 90 pitches in a game on Tuesday.  He may come to practice on Wednesday and do little to no throwing then throw a light bullpen on Thursday and probably play some other position on Friday.  Sounds like the typical high school baseball pitcher, right?  What if Joe pitcher is going to pitching lessons on Wednesday and Thursday after practice?  What type of throwing does he do there?  Does his pitching coach know what he has done in high school baseball that week?  Does the pitching coach care what he has done in baseball that week?  I'm not saying it's impossible to do both but, in my opinion, it's very hard to do both without the risk of overuse!!!

To bighawk, be sure you know where your overuse came from before you start blaming your surgery on something that happened when you were a freshman.