Kiss basketball goodbye in HF!!!

[sleepy]

[quote name="knows2much" post="814975" timestamp="1277731204"]
Actually, I know the Spurger coach and got a chance to talk to him at a track meet.  I asked what happened in the semifinals game...he said, "It is almost impossible to beat a team that athletic with what I have."  2nd of all, I bet Coach Sutherland would dispute the only reason HJ beat Navasota in the playoffs is blah blah blah.  I think that the fact that the man has won more playoff games than anyone in the area and most in the state may have something to do with HJ winning any playoff games.  He knows how to win them plain and simple.  Kind of like Michigan State being in the final 4 6 of the last 12 years. None of that even matters.  I played on a high school team that was very successful and we all did the "offseason" workouts.  Yeah it made us stronger...yeah it made us faster...yeah I think it made us better.  I also played 4 years of college BASKETBALL...we lifted 3 times a week sometimes 4 ALL YEAR.  Before and after season we lifted for strength, speed, and stamina.  During the season we lifted to maintain, but we still lifted.

By the way...when you max out, you are actually only doing about 3 lifts.  Once again, if you are consitantly lifting it will have no affact on you.  I'm done arguing my point.  If any of you think someone's season is going down the drain because of strength training during the period then your just ignorant.
[/quote]

HJ wins games that the other "more athletic" teams should win because the few great athletes they have are skilled because they don't have universal offseason!!! THAT IS A FACT!

[AggiesAreWe]

I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?

[Guest speechless]

They do what is fair to each program and allow each coach to do what he was hired to do and run their program during their season


I love the references to the pros...find me a pro or college program that sacrifices skill time for strength training...

It don't happen....what u all fail to mention when discussing college and pros is that they have much more time available to lift and not sacrifice skill time

In high school.....when it comes to basketball you cannot afford to sacrifice skill time for strength training because time is so limited...so when someone forces u to give up ur entire athletic period to lift while ur competition gets that time to improve ball skills...u are gonna fall behind...5 hours of off season per week x 4 weeks per month x a 4 month season = 80 hours of court time that a team misses out on...u think that don't make a difference!?

As for talking to southerland I talked to him at his camp this past week and we talked bout navasota and he said and his other coach agreed too that navasota based on physicality should have beaten them all four years

[Guest speechless]

Got one word for ya...ponder....think they spend their time in off season while they were busy winning three of the last four state titles

[sleepy]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="814977" timestamp="1277732270"]
I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?
[/quote]

Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and you know why HJ is not winning in football. 

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="speechless" post="814980" timestamp="1277734827"]
Got one word for ya...ponder....think they spend their time in off season while they were busy winning three of the last four state titles
[/quote]

They haven't been playing football up until this season. ;)

Bad example.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="sleepy" post="814981" timestamp="1277735044"]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg814977#msg814977 date=1277732270]
I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?
[/quote]

Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and [b]you know why HJ is not winning in football[/b]. 
[/quote]


Why? What about Kountze?

[Guest speechless]

Aaa....that was my point exactly about ponder thnx for proving it...

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="speechless" post="814985" timestamp="1277735291"]
Aaa....that was my point exactly about ponder thnx for proving it...
[/quote]

I believe the topic was of comparison. If you don't play the other sport (football) obviously you have more time to devote to basketball skill training.

I think using an example of a school that doesn't play both sports is not a fair example of this subject matter.


BTW, nice use of the 3rd person. ;)

[setxguru]

Also my last repy to this topic.  It is obvious that the people on here disputed the weight lifting and making excuses why there school doesn't win in basketball have NEVER played past the high school level.  I can assure you that in college even the girls volleyball team has an in season and offseason weight program.  As far as HF goes, you would think that you would be happy that someone was trying something different at a program that has been down in all sports for some years now.  I will leave you once again with this statement.  If an athlete or group of athletes wants to win bad enough, then they will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to be successful.  Stop making excuses and GO TO WORK!!!

[stevenash]

[quote name="knows2much" post="814975" timestamp="1277731204"]
Actually, I know the Spurger coach and got a chance to talk to him at a track meet.  I asked what happened in the semifinals game...he said, "It is almost impossible to beat a team that athletic with what I have."  2nd of all, I bet Coach Sutherland would dispute the only reason HJ beat Navasota in the playoffs is blah blah blah.  I think that the fact that the man has won more playoff games than anyone in the area and most in the state may have something to do with HJ winning any playoff games.  He knows how to win them plain and simple.  Kind of like Michigan State being in the final 4 6 of the last 12 years. None of that even matters.  I played on a high school team that was very successful and we all did the "offseason" workouts.  Yeah it made us stronger...yeah it made us faster...yeah I think it made us better.  I also played 4 years of college BASKETBALL...we lifted 3 times a week sometimes 4 ALL YEAR.  Before and after season we lifted for strength, speed, and stamina.  During the season we lifted to maintain, but we still lifted.

If you are so sure that Coach Sutherland would dispute that comment, why dont you ask Coach Sutherland why he DOES NOT use or BELIEVE in universal off season?  After all, you are giving him a lot of credit for his success, so why not find out what they keys are?















By the way...when you max out, you are actually only doing about 3 lifts.  Once again, if you are consitantly lifting it will have no affact on you.  I'm done arguing my point.  If any of you think someone's season is going down the drain because of strength training during the period then your just ignorant.
[/quote]

[Guest ECBucFan]

I am glad EC is [i]not[/i] Kountze or H-J!  8)

[stevenash]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="814977" timestamp="1277732270"]
I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?
[/quote]

My guess is that their philosophy involves allowing each coach to do what he thinks is best for his program rather than forcing all programs to sacrifice for the sake of success in football. Does anyone find it odd that about 97% of all ADs are football coaches?  To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone".  If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.

[Guest ECBucFan]

[quote name="stevenash" post="814991" timestamp="1277736932"]
 To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone". [b] If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.[/b]
[/quote]

Oh please!  ::)

[stevenash]

[quote name="sleepy" post="814981" timestamp="1277735044"]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg814977#msg814977 date=1277732270]
I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?
[/quote]

Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and you know why HJ is not winning in football. 
[/quote]

If you are going to compare football to basketball, you must consider the numbers involved.  If you have 6 solid basketball players, you  have a great chance to do well.  You need three times that many to have that same chance on the football field.  I wonder why Lufkin Hudson has such a good basketball program.  I dont think it has anything to do with Universal Off Season.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="stevenash" post="814993" timestamp="1277737161"]
[quote author=sleepy link=topic=70692.msg814981#msg814981 date=1277735044]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg814977#msg814977 date=1277732270]
I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?
[/quote]

Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and you know why HJ is not winning in football. 
[/quote]

If you are going to compare football to basketball, you must consider the numbers involved.  If you have 6 solid basketball players, you  have a great chance to do well.  You need three times that many to have that same chance on the football field.  I wonder why Lufkin Hudson has such a good basketball program.  I dont think it has anything to do with Universal Off Season.
[/quote]



Again, another bad example. Hudson does not play football.

My question was what were schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their non -successful football programs. I was not questioning if they were doing enough or not.

[stevenash]

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="814992" timestamp="1277737053"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814991#msg814991 date=1277736932]
 To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone". [b] If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.[/b]
[/quote]

Oh please!  ::)
[/quote]

Oh please?  Its just a matter of whether someone believes that the top dog should micro manage or allow his managers some flexibility.  

[stevenash]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="814994" timestamp="1277737501"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814993#msg814993 date=1277737161]
[quote author=sleepy link=topic=70692.msg814981#msg814981 date=1277735044]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg814977#msg814977 date=1277732270]
I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"?
[/quote]

Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and you know why HJ is not winning in football. 
[/quote] 

If you are going to compare football to basketball, you must consider the numbers involved.  If you have 6 solid basketball players, you  have a great chance to do well.  You need three times that many to have that same chance on the football field.  I wonder why Lufkin Hudson has such a good basketball program.  I dont think it has anything to do with Universal Off Season.
[/quote]



Again, another bad example. Hudson does not play football.

My question was what were schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their non -successful football programs. I was not questioning if they were doing enough or not.
[/quote]

Hudson not playing football was my exact point.  They did not seem to need Universal Off Season to be "strong enough, big enough, fast enough" to play basketball.  Does anyone on this board know just how much Universal Off Season was used at Pt. Arthur Lincoln?  Should Kountze and HJ sacrifice the success of their basketball programs by having their athletes take a football based training approach?  I dont know of too many schools that have high success in every sport year in and year out. 

[Guest ECBucFan]

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="814505" timestamp="1277418527"]
EC has been more successful than %95 of the schools around here in basketball I think what we're doing is ok
[/quote]


Bingo!  8)

[AggiesAreWe]

As for universal training goes, this is how I feel and how some coaches that I know feel about it. I am in agreement with this following statement:


Universal off- season should be just that, workouts performed during each sports offseason. The basketball problem is this: the athletic period is when most of the peripheral and  basic skill work takes place ie.. inbounds plays, special situation work and plays, position specific work, rebounding,dribbling, and shooting drills, etc. In football much of this same time is spent working "peripherals" such as kickoffs, punts, returns (both k/o and punt) among others and in both sports team work is usually reserved for afterschool practices, (putting  all the work together). The way universal off -season is being run deprives other sports of this valuable time while allowing football to remain able to use this same valuable time. The other sports deserve to have this time as well when they are "in season".


This says it all.

[Guest ECBucFan]

[quote name="stevenash" post="814995" timestamp="1277737583"]
[quote author=ECBucFan link=topic=70692.msg814992#msg814992 date=1277737053]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814991#msg814991 date=1277736932]
 To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone". [b] If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.[/b]
[/quote]

Oh please!  ::)
[/quote]

Oh please?  Its just a matter of whether someone believes that the top dog should micro manage or allow his managers some flexibility.  
[/quote]

To even try to correlate priorities of different AD's and their respective HS athletic programs with the wholesale incompetence and corruption within US government run programs is ludicrous!    ::)

     

[stevenash]

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="815000" timestamp="1277738579"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814995#msg814995 date=1277737583]
[quote author=ECBucFan link=topic=70692.msg814992#msg814992 date=1277737053]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814991#msg814991 date=1277736932]
 To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone". [b] If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.[/b]
[/quote]

Oh please!  ::)
[/quote]

Oh please?  Its just a matter of whether someone believes that the top dog should micro manage or allow his managers some flexibility.  
[/quote]

To even try to correlate priorities of different AD's and their respective HS athletic programs with the wholesale incompetence and corruption within US government run programs is ludicrous!    ::)

     
[/quote]Sorry, but the chain of command is the chain of command.  If you dont want to use the government, you can make other analogies.  You can be assured that the I Phone was not invented/developed because Steve Jobs told all of his employees that they must develop their ideas in a specific manner.  "One Size Fits All' is very counterproductive in the business world and most schools that do well in basketball DO NOT use Universal Off Season.  If that doesnt please  you to hear it, fine.  But the fact remains that MOST consistently successful basketball programs do not use that approach.  Additionally, you are unwilling to acknowledge the fact that nearly every AD has a football background and human nature suggests that his approach is likely to give the advantage to football.  If that works and the basketball program happens to do well, thats great.  Say what you want or try to spin it however you want, but there just arent many programs where it turns out that way.

[Guest ECBucFan]

This is just silly now.

Steve Jobs and Apple are #1 in consumer electronics [u][i]because[/i] they intensely focused on being #1 in consumer electronics![/u]    ::)

Bottom line in this whole debate: Football [u]is[/u] king in Texas, period. It ain't gonna change! A few programs though do have differing priorities, and its their prerogative to do so. More power to em'. If anyone wants to fight against football in Texas, its going to be a long and entirely futile fight that will go very badly for them. If you want to put BB first, you would be far more comfortable in the state of Indiana or New York City.   

[stevenash]

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="815006" timestamp="1277740297"]
This is just silly now.

Steve Jobs and Apple are #1 in consumer electronics [u][i]because[/i] they intensely focused on being #1 in consumer electronics![/u]    ::)

Bottom line in this whole debate: Football [u]is[/u] king in Texas, period. It ain't gonna change! A few programs though do have differing priorities, and its their prerogative to do so. More power to em'. If anyone wants to fight against football in Texas, its going to be a long and entirely futile fight that will go very badly for them. If you want to put BB first, you would be far more comfortable in the state of Indiana or New York City.   
[/quote]

I have no argument with the fact that football is and is probably always going to be #1 in Texas.  I also have no argument with Apples focus on being number one.  But they are not number one using the One Shoe Fits All approach and there is nothing you can say or do to alter that fact.  This entire thread began because someone suggested that Universal Off Season will not benefit the H-F basketball program and I happen to agree.  Maybe you and I should just wait and see if it does or not.  Here is an idea.  Why not go back and pick any 3 years in the last ten in the state basketball tournament and see how many of the participants (all classifications) use Universal Off Season? If you wish to do it on a more local basis, go back and look at the regional tourneys for all classes last season and make the same analysis.  I can already tell you what you will find.  In 1-a, it will be fairly prevalent because all kids play all sports.  In 2-a, it will still be fairly prevalent for the same reason.  But when you get to 3-a and beyond, you are going to find just the opposite.  If you combine all 5 classifications and add up the numbers, there will be a substantial plus for those not using universal off season.

[sleepy]

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="814989" timestamp="1277736569"]
I am glad EC is [i]not[/i] Kountze or H-J!  8)
[/quote]

You obviously care more about football then  ;)