Triple Play

[DAMan]

In one of my games today, had a very unusual triple play.

No outs, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a fly ball to CF, caught.  Meanwhile both runners took off

prior to the touch of the ball/glove.  Everyone in the park was aware of it.  CF fires the ball to 3B,

who happens to be standing on the bag, with R2 advancing from 2B, and R1 about 1/4 of the way

toward HP.  An obvious appeal was made at 2B, which was properly executed.

No obvious appeal at 3rd, and I as PU, made no call.  I did not know if they were attempting to get

the advancing runner from 2nd or what.  However, the entire offensive team left the field and entered

the dugout, thus causing the third out.

There would not have been a 3rd out had not the team entered the dugout, because no appeal was

made on the runner at third.  Had she retreated back to 3rd, or advanced to HP, she would have been

safe.

Just throwing the ball to a base without a proper appeal will get you nothing.  The umpire must know

what is going on and in this case it was not at all obvious as to just what was happening.

[MBB2]

What constitutes the entire team?  At that point, if I understood you correctly, R2 was out on appeal, B3 was out on the catch, and R1 eventually crossed the plate.  If all that is true, the only player left on the field was the ondeck batter.  Correct or no?

I guess I left the coaches out of that.  Did they leave as well, and that factor into the third out?

Also, having not yet made a call on R1, did you just signal her out once whoever left the field?  If R1 did not cross the plate, would her having done so changed anything?  I presume since that is an appeal play the run would have scored?

I've done a good job of confusing myself here... 

???

[DAMan]

What constitutes the entire team?  At that point, if I understood you correctly, R2 was out on appeal, B3 was out on the catch, and R1 eventually crossed the plate.  If all that is true, the only player left on the field was the ondeck batter.  Correct or no?

-----------------------------------------------

From what I could tell the entire team, including coaches left the field.  The offensive team coach did not

question the call, because he was at 3rd and knew she departed early.

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I guess I left the coaches out of that.  Did they leave as well, and that factor into the third out?

Also, having not yet made a call on R1, did you just signal her out once whoever left the field?  If R1 did not cross the plate, would her having done so changed anything?  I presume since that is an appeal play the run would have scored?

----------------------------------------------

Yes, had R1 crossed and touched HP it would have changed the entire play. 

Her run would have counted unless a proper appeal was made by the defensive team before both teams left the

field.

I've done a good job of confusing myself here... 

???

[trophyman]

where in what rule book is a scenario like this         

I'm just wanting to read it cause it don't pay me to think 

i thought it was  an automatic appeal if your team throws the ball to the base the runner left early from

[DAMan]

where in what rule book is a scenario like this           

I'm just wanting to read it cause it don't pay me to think 

i thought it was  an automatic appeal if your team throws the ball to the base the runner left early from

Under definitions section:

A play on a rule violation on which an umpire may not make a decision until requested by a

manager, coach or player.

In our stitch we had two runners involved.  BU has responsibility on tag up for runner at 2B and PU had the

responsibility for tag up for runner at 3B.  [R1 at 3rd, R2 at 2nd.]

Before the ball was touched, as PU I knew R1 left waaaay early.  What R2 did, not my responsibility.  Once

the ball was caught, F7 threw towards 3rd.  R1 was advancing toward HP, R2 toward 3B.  F5 catches the

ball, while in contact with the base awaiting the runner advancing from 2nd.  Seeing R2 retreating to 2B

F5 throws the ball to F4, who beat the throw, but is appealed by player, base touched and runner declared

out by BU.

At this point both teams leave the field, without any appeal being made on the runner from 3rd.  Entire team

entered the dugout, so R1 out.

Just because a ball is thrown to a base means nothing.  In my opinion in this stitch, they were attempting

to get R2 out on the advance. 

We cannot assume.  If I call her out without an appeal, I have given the defensive an advantage.

[Mc]

where in what rule book is a scenario like this           

I'm just wanting to read it cause it don't pay me to think 

i thought it was  an automatic appeal if your team throws the ball to the base the runner left early from

Under definitions section:

A play on a rule violation on which an umpire may not make a decision until requested by a

manager, coach or player.

In our stitch we had two runners involved.  BU has responsibility on tag up for runner at 2B and PU had the

responsibility for tag up for runner at 3B.  [R1 at 3rd, R2 at 2nd.]

Before the ball was touched, as PU I knew R1 left waaaay early.  What R2 did, not my responsibility.  Once

the ball was caught, F7 threw towards 3rd.  R1 was advancing toward HP, R2 toward 3B.  F5 catches the

ball, while in contact with the base awaiting the runner advancing from 2nd.  Seeing R2 retreating to 2B

F5 throws the ball to F4, who beat the throw, but is appealed by player, base touched and runner declared

out by BU.

At this point both teams leave the field, without any appeal being made on the runner from 3rd.  Entire team

entered the dugout, so R1 out.

Just because a ball is thrown to a base means nothing.  In my opinion in this stitch, they were attempting

to get R2 out on the advance. 

We cannot assume.  If I call her out without an appeal, I have given the defensive an advantage.

Are you saying that if R1 realized her mistake and returned to 3rd, after the bag was tagged by the 3B, that you would have called her safe pending a proper appeal?  Obviously I'm missing something here, seems pretty straightforward.

Why would an APPEAL need to be made on the runner (R1) who left early from 3B?  How is that any different than: same situation, line drive caught by 3B, R1 going on contact.  3B steps on 3rd for the DP.  No appeal needed. Happens all the time.

[#1 Cheater]

where in what rule book is a scenario like this           

I'm just wanting to read it cause it don't pay me to think 

i thought it was  an automatic appeal if your team throws the ball to the base the runner left early from

Under definitions section:

A play on a rule violation on which an umpire may not make a decision until requested by a

manager, coach or player.

In our stitch we had two runners involved.  BU has responsibility on tag up for runner at 2B and PU had the

responsibility for tag up for runner at 3B.  [R1 at 3rd, R2 at 2nd.]

Before the ball was touched, as PU I knew R1 left waaaay early.  What R2 did, not my responsibility.  Once

the ball was caught, F7 threw towards 3rd.  R1 was advancing toward HP, R2 toward 3B.  F5 catches the

ball, while in contact with the base awaiting the runner advancing from 2nd.  Seeing R2 retreating to 2B

F5 throws the ball to F4, who beat the throw, but is appealed by player, base touched and runner declared

out by BU.

At this point both teams leave the field, without any appeal being made on the runner from 3rd.  Entire team

entered the dugout, so R1 out.

Just because a ball is thrown to a base means nothing.  In my opinion in this stitch, they were attempting

to get R2 out on the advance. 

We cannot assume.  If I call her out without an appeal, I have given the defensive an advantage.

Are you saying that if R1 realized her mistake and returned to 3rd, after the bag was tagged by the 3B, that you would have called her safe pending a proper appeal?  Obviously I'm missing something here, seems pretty straightforward.

Why would an APPEAL need to be made on the runner (R1) who left early from 3B?  How is that any different than: same situation, line drive caught by 3B, R1 going on contact.  3B steps on 3rd for the DP.  No appeal needed. Happens all the time.

Dang MC....You beat me to the question!

[DAMan]

where in what rule book is a scenario like this           

I'm just wanting to read it cause it don't pay me to think 

i thought it was  an automatic appeal if your team throws the ball to the base the runner left early from

Under definitions section:

A play on a rule violation on which an umpire may not make a decision until requested by a

manager, coach or player.

In our stitch we had two runners involved.  BU has responsibility on tag up for runner at 2B and PU had the

responsibility for tag up for runner at 3B.  [R1 at 3rd, R2 at 2nd.]

Before the ball was touched, as PU I knew R1 left waaaay early.  What R2 did, not my responsibility.  Once

the ball was caught, F7 threw towards 3rd.  R1 was advancing toward HP, R2 toward 3B.  F5 catches the

ball, while in contact with the base awaiting the runner advancing from 2nd.  Seeing R2 retreating to 2B

F5 throws the ball to F4, who beat the throw, but is appealed by player, base touched and runner declared

out by BU.

At this point both teams leave the field, without any appeal being made on the runner from 3rd.  Entire team

entered the dugout, so R1 out.

Just because a ball is thrown to a base means nothing.  In my opinion in this stitch, they were attempting

to get R2 out on the advance. 

We cannot assume.  If I call her out without an appeal, I have given the defensive an advantage.

Are you saying that if R1 realized her mistake and returned to 3rd, after the bag was tagged by the 3B, that you would have called her safe pending a proper appeal?  Obviously I'm missing something here, seems pretty straightforward.

Why would an APPEAL need to be made on the runner (R1) who left early from 3B?  How is that any different than: same situation, line drive caught by 3B, R1 going on contact.  3B steps on 3rd for the DP.  No appeal needed. Happens all the time.

In that case, yes, happens all the time.

In stitch I posted, the ball was thrown towards 3B with a runner, R2 from 2nd advancing.  Was the defense

attempting to tag her, or appealing the "left base before touch of ball" violation?  As an umpire, you cannot

assume anything.  That is why there is the appeal procedure.  If you were the offensive coach involved in a

play such as this, would you want an umpire to make a decision on a play he was not asked to become in-

volved in?  Don't think so, knowing both you and cheater 1.

[DAMan]

Come on BHBLUE, jump in anytime.  ;D

[Mc]

No outs, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a fly ball to CF, caught.  Meanwhile both runners took off

prior to the touch of the ball/glove.  Everyone in the park was aware of it.  CF fires the ball to 3B,

who happens to be standing on the bag, with R2 advancing from 2B, and R1 about 1/4 of the way

toward HP.  An obvious appeal was made at 2B, which was properly executed.

Accidental outs occur occasionally.  i.e.  bases loaded, 2 outs, dropped 3rd strike, catcher (with ball) accidently steps on home plate while throwing wildly to 1st.  3rd out occurred as soon as catcher touches home plate whether intentional or not, everything that happens after that is moot.

What constitutes an obvious appeal?  3B has already stepped on the base to get the out and has to quickly get the ball to 2B to get R2. What action did 3B have to make show an obvious appeal?

[DAMan]

No outs, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a fly ball to CF, caught.  Meanwhile both runners took off

prior to the touch of the ball/glove.  Everyone in the park was aware of it.  CF fires the ball to 3B,

who happens to be standing on the bag, with R2 advancing from 2B, and R1 about 1/4 of the way

toward HP.  An obvious appeal was made at 2B, which was properly executed.

Accidental outs occur occasionally.  i.e.  bases loaded, 2 outs, dropped 3rd strike, catcher (with ball) accidently steps on home plate while throwing wildly to 1st.  3rd out occurred as soon as catcher touches home plate whether intentional or not, everything that happens after that is moot.

What constitutes an obvious appeal?  3B has already stepped on the base to get the out and has to quickly get the ball to 2B to get R2. What action did 3B have to make show an obvious appeal?

IMHO is the play that happen, F5 was not attempting to put R1 out, for she had tured to watch the catch.  Her

immediate plan was to tag R2 who was attempting to advance to 3rd.  I had not received any indication from the

player or coach that there was an appeal being made on R1.  Did hear coach ask BU for appeal at 2nd, which he

granted and called the runner out.  Did she leave early?  I don't know, she was not my relm of responsibility.

What constitutes an obvious appeal?  Easy.  "Blue, fielder with ball, or coach asking and fielder with ball touching

the base or runner in question.  This was only done on the play at 2nd.

[ccbetr.5]

Ooohhh I'm so con-fuzed ??? :'(

[Mc]

No outs, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, B3 hits a fly ball to CF, caught.  Meanwhile both runners took off

prior to the touch of the ball/glove.  Everyone in the park was aware of it.  CF fires the ball to 3B,

who happens to be standing on the bag, with R2 advancing from 2B, and R1 about 1/4 of the way

toward HP.  An obvious appeal was made at 2B, which was properly executed.

Accidental outs occur occasionally.  i.e.  bases loaded, 2 outs, dropped 3rd strike, catcher (with ball) accidently steps on home plate while throwing wildly to 1st.  3rd out occurred as soon as catcher touches home plate whether intentional or not, everything that happens after that is moot.

What constitutes an obvious appeal?  3B has already stepped on the base to get the out and has to quickly get the ball to 2B to get R2. What action did 3B have to make show an obvious appeal?

IMHO is the play that happen, F5 was not attempting to put R1 out, for she had tured to watch the catch.  Her

immediate plan was to tag R2 who was attempting to advance to 3rd.  I had not received any indication from the

player or coach that there was an appeal being made on R1.  Did hear coach ask BU for appeal at 2nd, which he

granted and called the runner out.  Did she leave early?  I don't know, she was not my relm of responsibility.

What constitutes an obvious appeal?  Easy.  "Blue, fielder with ball, or coach asking and fielder with ball touching

the base or runner in question.  This was only done on the play at 2nd.

I guess I'm still missing something here.  You stated that everyone in the park was aware of it.  You want an appeal made on R1 at 3B, meanwhile R2 gets to scamper back into 2B while the "appeal" at 3B gets confirmation from the umpire.  That definitely does not give the defense, as you put it, an advantage.  But it does give an advantage to the offense who committed the boneheaded play to begin with (no offense to the guilty parties).

[BHBLUE]

Accidental outs occur occasionally.  i.e.  bases loaded, 2 outs, dropped 3rd strike, catcher (with ball) accidently steps on home plate while throwing wildly to 1st.  3rd out occurred as soon as catcher touches home plate whether intentional or not, everything that happens after that is moot.

What constitutes an obvious appeal?  3B has already stepped on the base to get the out and has to quickly get the ball to 2B to get R2. What action did 3B have to make show an obvious appeal?

Players are only required to touch a base on force plays and tag a runner on tag plays; not to do so intentionally.  Appeals require players to let the umpire know, in some way, that she is appealing a missed base, left early, etc. 99% of the time it's obvious to the umpire that an appeal is being made, but in situations like the DAMan had, if he felt the throw to 3rd was an attempt to retire the runner coming from second based on the fielder's actions, it is not an appeal.

Having said that, and although I wasn't there, I'm more inclined to give the fielder the benefit of the doubt and call the runner from 3rd out immediately, before the fielder throws the ball to 2nd.  I like outs!  We only need 42 of them in a 7 inning game so umpires should get them whenever and wherever they can.  ;D

[Mc]

Had R1 returned to 3rd after the 3B had thrown the ball to 2nd would R1 still have been considered safe? Or would the defensive team have the opportunity to appeal that the base had been tagged, albeit unintentionally and/or without an announced appeal, before R1 returned and therefore R1 would be considered out?  I don't think I would be alone in saying that the defensive coach would/should have a HUGE problem if an out on R1 was not awarded somewhere in the mix.

[MBB2]

Good question.  What would have happenend if R1 had went back to third while the defense was appealing the out at 2B?

[DAMan]

Had R1 returned to 3rd after the 3B had thrown the ball to 2nd would R1 still have been considered safe? Or would the defensive team have the opportunity to appeal that the base had been tagged, albeit unintentionally and/or without an announced appeal, before R1 returned and therefore R1 would be considered out?  I don't think I would be alone in saying that the defensive coach would/should have a HUGE problem if an out on R1 was not awarded somewhere in the mix.

Yes, if R1 had not entered DBT and [if she had touched HP, re-touched HP], she could have gone back to 3rd, and

been safe.  Provided she accomplished all the above prior to an appeal.

[BHBLUE]

Had R1 returned to 3rd after the 3B had thrown the ball to 2nd would R1 still have been considered safe? Or would the defensive team have the opportunity to appeal that the base had been tagged, albeit unintentionally and/or without an announced appeal, before R1 returned and therefore R1 would be considered out?  I don't think I would be alone in saying that the defensive coach would/should have a HUGE problem if an out on R1 was not awarded somewhere in the mix.

Provided she had not yet touched home, she could return to 3rd and her leaving early could no longer be appealed.

I didn't mean to imply that the F5 had to "announce" the appeal, just that it is obvious to the umpire. 

This situation involves DAMan's judgement that the throw to 3rd was not made to appeal R1 leaving early.  I hate to throw the J word out there, but it really is as simple as that.  Interpretation of the rule book is not an issue here.  Nor is the size of the defensive coaches problem.   

[MBB2]

Had R1 returned to 3rd after the 3B had thrown the ball to 2nd would R1 still have been considered safe? Or would the defensive team have the opportunity to appeal that the base had been tagged, albeit unintentionally and/or without an announced appeal, before R1 returned and therefore R1 would be considered out?  I don't think I would be alone in saying that the defensive coach would/should have a HUGE problem if an out on R1 was not awarded somewhere in the mix.

Provided she had not yet touched home, she could return to 3rd and her leaving early could no longer be appealed.

I didn't mean to imply that the F5 had to "announce" the appeal, just that it is obvious to the umpire. 

This situation involves DAMan's judgement that the throw to 3rd was not made to appeal R1 leaving early.  I hate to throw the J word out there, but it really is as simple as that.  Interpretation of the rule book is not an issue here.  Nor is the size of the defensive coaches problem.   

That doesn't seem right.  Not disagreeing in the context of the appeal, just doesn't seem "right" to the defense.  An out is an out, at least I thought it was.  I never knew intent was a consideration.

By that definition: runners at 1st and 2nd, batter hits looping liner over pitcher's head, SS runs over and catches the ball as she steps on second base.  Throws to first for the tag of runner going back to first.  Lead runner returns to second and is safe because there was not yet a specific appeal on her and the SS was not intending to force her out when she "inadvertently" touched the bag? 

[Mc]

Had R1 returned to 3rd after the 3B had thrown the ball to 2nd would R1 still have been considered safe? Or would the defensive team have the opportunity to appeal that the base had been tagged, albeit unintentionally and/or without an announced appeal, before R1 returned and therefore R1 would be considered out?  I don't think I would be alone in saying that the defensive coach would/should have a HUGE problem if an out on R1 was not awarded somewhere in the mix.

Provided she had not yet touched home, she could return to 3rd and her leaving early could no longer be appealed.

I didn't mean to imply that the F5 had to "announce" the appeal, just that it is obvious to the umpire. 

This situation involves DAMan's judgement that the throw to 3rd was not made to appeal R1 leaving early.  I hate to throw the J word out there, but it really is as simple as that.  Interpretation of the rule book is not an issue here.  Nor is the size of the defensive coaches problem.   

That doesn't seem right.  Not disagreeing in the context of the appeal, just doesn't seem "right" to the defense.  An out is an out, at least I thought it was.  I never knew intent was a consideration.

By that definition: runners at 1st and 2nd, batter hits looping liner over pitcher's head, SS runs over and catches the ball as she steps on second base.  Throws to first for the tag of runner going back to first.  Lead runner returns to second and is safe because there was not yet a specific appeal on her and the SS was not intending to force her out when she "inadvertently" touched the bag? 

It appears that is the case.  Fielder must show "intent" to make the out.  Umpire must judge what is going on inside the fielders head as to whether or not they knew by touching the base that the runner left early.

Arguing with 2 umpires, I think I'm about to get tossed off this thread! ;D

[trophyman]

ok tha girl left third early, as soon as the ball is caught at third the runner that did not taggup should be out

and if the ball is then thrown to second base before that runner returns she should be out also that puts all runners in a force unless they tag

before the throw to that base is made  or thats the way its been 40 years!!!!!!! ???

[BHBLUE]

I have already stated how I handle these situations and would never question DAMan's interpretation of the rule book or his judgement.  I will simply cite the rule:

ASA Rule 8, Section 7, Article F

"The runner is out when the runner leaves a base to advance to another base before a caught fly ball has touched a fielder, provided the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed."

POE #1 - Live Ball Appeal

"In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if he is still on the playing field."

Obviously, I was wrong in my interpretation of the rule as it pertains to this particular situation so disregard most of my previous posts on this issue.  :-[ 

Now let's say the runner from second ended up coming around to score.  When the ball was thrown to 3rd base, the appeal would not be automatic since the umpire doesn't know if they are appealing the runner leaving 3rd too early or the runner from 2nd missing 3rd.  The fielder would need to inform the umpire which it is.                         

[DAMan]

I have already stated how I handle these situations and would never question DAMan's interpretation of the rule book or his judgement.  I will simply cite the rule:

ASA Rule 8, Section 7, Article F

"The runner is out when the runner leaves a base to advance to another base before a caught fly ball has touched a fielder, provided the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed."

POE #1 - Live Ball Appeal

"In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if he is still on the playing field."

Obviously, I was wrong in my interpretation of the rule as it pertains to this particular situation so disregard most of my previous posts on this issue.  :-[ 

Now let's say the runner from second ended up coming around to score.  When the ball was thrown to 3rd base, the appeal would not be automatic since the umpire doesn't know if they are appealing the runner leaving 3rd too early or the runner from 2nd missing 3rd.  The fielder would need to inform the umpire which it is.                           

BHBLUE,

First off, I would definiately not say any interpretation of yours on a rule would be wrong.

This was a wried play from the get go.

There are two defensive players at or near third at the time the ball is coming in, and R2 on her way to the base.

I realize R1 left early, I know F5's first move was toward outfield, then quickly back toward 3rd, thus receiving

the throw from F7.  [R2 is heading toward 3rd base, maybe just shy of half way there], F5 received the throw from F7, is in contact with the base, but in MHO not because R1 left early, she is awaiting R2's advance.  Hearing F4

call for the ball & saying R2 left early, she throws to F4, who tags base and BU calls the out.  The defensive team

thinking at this time the triple play is in tact, still on field at or near 3rd yelling and hollaring.  I have seen R1,

short of HP, go towards and enter dugout along with rest of the team.  Now call R1 out, inning over.  No

arguments from offensive team.

I felt if I called R1 out then I was giving the defensive team an advantage since no appeal was properly made until

ball was thrown to 2nd.

I am finished with this one.

How was your weekend, BHBLUE?