1212kmg

Here is and idea bring a go pro to the board meeting to capture the "moment" That way all sides of any story could be reviewed.

It seems to me that some changes need to be made to the by-laws and code of conduct so coaches know ahead of time what they can and cannot do with specificity.  There also needs to be some changes to the voting rules (what constitutes a quorum for example) and a definitive ban on having "secret" meetings without the full presence of all those on the board.  It is a sad state of affairs that something like that even has to be put in writing.  If the majority feels the need to keep the Mercy Rule then you need to establish a separate committee comprised of individuals who are unbiased (e.g. not coaches, don't have kids that play, etc.) to make these determinations.  All in all, I think it is a waste of time and energy and you just need to get rid of the rule altogether.  If someone truly runs up a score intentionally, they are their own worse enemy and will suffer eventually as a result.  
 
Yes, thetragichippy, I think a lot of people are considering another organization because of these antics -- not something to be proud of.

Why exactly is the Mercy Rule in place?  Whatever happened to just playing the game and teaching boys (or girls if they play the game which some do) that sometimes a huge loss is just that -- a loss.  Character is built when you teach kids how to lose gracefully.  Your idea that this league is about you as a coach, dad, mom or league President, or Board member is flawed.  No one cares what you do, don't do or how you perform.  The ultimate question is whether your child is improving, having fun and becoming a better man/woman because he can handle the losses with the wins.  If you as a coach, dad, mom, league President or Board member harps on these alleged atrocities so much so you seek to "punish" others . . . you are only teaching your kids to be complete failures, complainers and ultimate losers in life.  Your kids will be the ones with their hands out begging for favors b/c they are inadequate in every respect.  
 
I would imagine this rule was put in place based on a gentlemen's agreement or understanding that no coach would intentionally run up the score.  I have read the by-laws and "definition" of the "Mercy Rule" and no where does it allow for this board to meet out a punishment of any sort, let alone to tell a man he is put on a lifetime probation.  No where does it outline what any alleged punishment would be either -- it was left undefined b/c no one ever expected this type of result.    If you want to continue with these decisions, please know that the rules are so vague and lacking in definition that they do not call for the use of "evidence" (such as videos), let alone using video and then not letting the accused party to view it in his or her defense.  If you want to start holding "ethical" boards and meeting punishment, you better have some protocol and particularly defined violations in writing in addition to what is required to constitute a legitimate vote to punish a coach and/or vote off a Board member.    
 
This board needs to be a little more pensive in how they act in the future.  They are skirting on the brinks of a discrimination lawsuit.  One in race given the 2 coaches they put on probation are African American (a repeated pattern I regret) and now sexual.  This I am afraid is coming from a white mother who is tired of listening to all this bantering of pathetic men.  You seriously kicked off of the one women who is on this Board?  I have no idea what she did to warrant such action but, again, where do your by-laws allow for such action?  You guys are fooling yourselves if you think your "punishments" have any real consequence other then defaming and libeling certain individuals.  These people have no legal impetus to follow your punishment other than they are trying to be respectful to the league and the kids -- which this is all about and kudos to them for not fighting back.  Be careful what you say to disparage other individuals on this forum and elsewhere.  The internet has a strange way of coming back to bite you in the --- (anonymous or not).  Things that are said on these forums can be used in discovery and in litigation.  
 
Stand up and be real men and teach your boys to be proud losers or winners, no matter how the chips may fall and no matter how bad you think you have been cheated (truth or not).  You aren't teaching your kids squat if you helicopter and try to outdo their "failures" all the time.  Life lessons people -- get real.
 
 

If they are really concerned about the score being so lopsided, then implement a true mercy rule like in baseball. It's over when it's over and no one can question anything.

So why are the coaches told it's ok as long as it's held under 40? Why even open that can of worms? You ready to analyze every game and every team to make sure they upheld whatever YOU define to be the "spirit" of the Mercy rule?

Define the rule!!!!! This a game. Make some definitive rules and let the kids play. Do it like baseball- . Have a true Mercy rule. End the game at 14-7 so everyone feels great. If it's 7 then it's 7. If it's 14 then it's fourteen. Quit trying police certain people and coach your kids.

My kid suxs at soccer. It's ok. She's great at dance and school. When she complains about not scoring I tell her to work harder, practice more. And low and behold she scored the winning goal in her soccer game yesterday.

I certainly don't make up crap about the other team and question their intentions for letting their kids score goals just to make her feel better. It's called life and raising successful adults who are able to cope with the real world.

Thanks dad! I'll try to show them more respect than they have shown my team.

I'm currently compiling all the times this STJFL board has broken their own set of bylaws to present at the board meeting. I'm also submitting bylaw changes. Like bobcat, I take my self appointed job as head of the bmt teams legal research very seriously.

And since the STJFL subjects it's self to the open meeting act and Roberts rules of order, I should be in good shape!

I hope they have every i dotted and every t crossed in how they run this organization.

Luv,

I am truly sorry if I offended you. I think you and I agree on many topics on this forum.

I am the first to say let kids play. I do not care one bit what the score is. I do not believe a team should be punished for scoring over a 40 point differential. If a team gets beat, a team gets beat. Sometimes it's a butt kicking, sometimes it's not. It's football, just play.

Nederland was punished (from what I understand) for supposedly breaking and ethics rule of bad sportsmanship. He did not intentionally run the score up on the other team. He was not trying to be malicious in letting his kids play ball and allowing them to do so at their very best. The board wants coaches to basically tell kids not to score to show sportsmanship. If that's the case, why would you advance the ball at 7 seconds left in the game when up by 14 points?

Again, the "rules" either apply to everyone (including board members) or they apply to no one.

"The use of the GoPro is to document the conduct of coaches that Are F'bombing 5/6 year old kids and refs. Today, we a very vocal parent/Fan on the sideline. As soon as this parent saw the GoPro as I appoarched them , the situation was immediate defused. These adults that conduct themselves in an unsportsmanlike manners have very short memories and 1,000 reasons to justify this conduct. I'm very hesitant to answer any questions on this board because those who are against the ones that spend 1,00 of hours away from their families and constantly are being bombarded with personnel attacks while having every word possible twisted to justify thier conduct. But your right, it's a shame that I have to take these step to insure that any situation is handled correctly And that STJFL survives as a league. So why would anyone be against all STJFL Rep wearing a GoPro to eliminate these adults that ruin such an event for children."

Several problems with this reasoning Bobcat. From what you say, you apparently on the STJFL Board. What is your position title -- Security Foreman? Last I checked, I don't recall any such position being created by
The Board Bylaws. Typically, you leave the control of unruly behavior to the police or hired security. More importantly, no where does it say that any Board member can use video of any kind to document alleged violations by coaches or parents. You are acting without any authority whatsoever. If you put that camera in my face, I would call the police and ask that you be detained for harassment. You are not the media and you again have NO AUTHORITY to be doing what you are doing. Most importantly did any of these coach volunteers agree to the use of this sort of documentation against them when they signed up to volunteer? No -- they did not because they have had no notice that such evidence would be used against them because it is not in your Bylaws. As I have said before, you four are making up the rules as you go. You cannot punish people for things that they do not know are violations. If the coaches take steps to move players around in order to not run up the score -- they have followed the spirit of the Mercy Rule and that is all that is required by the STJFL bylaws. If you don't want personal attacks, then don't act with such arrogance and retribution -- you are getting what you asked for. Be reasonable, even-handed and fair-minded in what you do and the majority will follow and respect you.

threads like this are entertaining and sad at the same time.
 
a bunch of dads trying to live through their kids.
 
at their age you should be teaching the kids fundamentals and developing all the kids instead of worrying about the score. yes it is nice to win but not necessary. no one really cares who won some youth league 2 years from now.
 
what is funny is most the kids who are big stars in the youth leagues are early bloomers. once the other kids catch up to them or out grow them they are nobodies.  
 
only time winning matters is varsity ball. everything else is instructional league.

Come on know IceWater lets not go there. We havent broken a written rule in three years. We are respected also. I can come back to the fruit and get all the love i want. Being respected by racist, grownups living through their kids, and just bad people its not a goal of mine. I can care less about what those types of people think of me. And to take it a step further all of the above people laugh and smile in our faces but say and do different things at their board meetings. I'm upset because you and the rest of the league are attempting to drag our names in the mud on the cool, were not criminals and i'm getting tired of this board and the league attempting to paint that picture. I've been quiet because of my son, so if yall want to play hard ball we can!! so lets stop throwing jabs at the two coaches in question here and i will be just fine. You know who i am so lets stop acting like WOS has such great coaching and your the spokes person for how its done. You know how to get in touch with me!!!

It seems to me that your team, BMT, PNG W and Ned W Jr  are all doing the same when it comes to getting prepared for Sat and executing what your team is taught. So why BMT/ Ned W Jr  team getting punished? You answered the question pretty much how I figured you would, regarding defense and what is that teaching a kid. Same goes for offense what is it teaching a kid who never runs the ball and has the chance to score but is  being told not to score? I agree there are a number of teams that  are all preparing their kids for the next level and when you see those teams  playing on friday it shows. As you have stated in another post what has been done is done and hopefully those other STJFL Board members will come together for what do what is best for the league. Good Luck in your final 2 games and the playoffs.

For future consideration by the Board

From the By-laws:

Article XVII, Section 1. "Should these by-laws now, or in the future become invalid, outdated, or judged to be detrimental, or in violation of any State or Federal guidelines, STJFL will immediately make arrangements to make the necessary amendments to ensure that this Association be in full and complete compliance."

Article XVI, Section 1. "Any amendment to these by-laws must be made by a 2/3rds majority vote of STJFL board members present and voting at a regular or special called meeting. Each STJFL board member must be duly notified in writing at least 15 days in advance of the proposed vote or change. No by-law amendments will be made after the regularly scheduled meeting in May in the current calendar year of the STJFL. Amendments to the by-laws shall become effective immediately upon a proper vote."

My advice to you and others who are still upset about the forfeit and the way things are run is this! Deal with the cards you have been dealt and fight your way out of this wet paper bag! Your better than this and know what you need to do to achieve your goal so move forward and do it! What happened is the past and their not going to change their minds so let it be! Turn it around and coach your kids and be the team you want to be and follow their rules for a few more weeks and once it's over then revisit the laws and see what comes about! Until then be the Bmt you believe you can be and let's let this argument die! Everybody knows but don't nobody know is all I keep reading! I wanna talk smack not discuss why this happened! It's old, we beat png white lost to you and you lost to them so we're in a 3 way tie for king of STJFL and were from the small school so now what? Hah

"But there are rules so don't break them." Where are these rules listed for these coaches to see? As far as I've seen, there is a definition of the Mercy Rule and the rest is open to subjective interpretation. Hence the abuse of power.

Great response Icewater. Wish all could be so reasonable - would make this problem go away.

my child knows what's going on and is wondering why he is sitting 3rd in the playoffs and he beat the Lumberton blue and they are sitting 2nd. And I can't even explain to him why because the STJFL board haven't given us a reason.. What THE BOARD don't understand is they are only hurting the children in this. Our team don't have their Head coach whose been coaching them since August and they get TWO games taken away from them just because the board wants their team to get in the playoffs!! CRAZINESS

Huge problem this world faces and has been facing....
 
Standing up/Fighting for what you believe.
 
I honestly hope I have taught my children to sand up for themselves and their beliefs, no matter if it is something petty like a football score. Our children are watching and taking notes. (Yes, most of these kids don't understand what is happening, but believe me, they are watching and LEARNING)
 
I also hope defense attorneys never stop ensuring investigations were properly conducted. Would hate to see freedom taken away from a person without being allowed to defend themselves.

Thanks Anklebiter, I appreciate that compliment. I refuse to argue on here because if I have to prove myself on here as a coach then I am obviously missing the mark! I enjoy what I do and I have no kids playing for my son is in junior high I just love to help kids!!!

Well Marie, I'm not going to argue with you about what's respectful in your eyes or mine! I firmly believe that we did the right thing and would never second guess my coaching decision or my head coaches decision from this weekend! The opposing team asked if we were ok with running the clock which made the game time fly! We subbed out kids left and right the entire game and yes I pulled my starters on defense because we always do! I love kids and would never want to disrespect a team or player but it's only our fault for teaching the kids to play good defense! I will never tell my kids to let someone score! What is that teaching them? What is that showing our opponent? If you ask 100 coaches and 100 kids if they were losing would they be happy or proud if the opposing team "just let them score" I am sure the answer 200 times would be NO! To me that is more embarrassing then running the score up! I have been in this league for a long time and my real name is Coach Dubby, I have nothing to hide on here! Our coaches love kids and we do what's right in our hearts! No one has a complaint against us nor we against anyone else! I respect your question and I hope you understand my response! We coach to improve and prepare for Friday night ball not just a good story at work!

And no rule was ever broken. Kids that never carry the ball score a TD and it makes the score 38-0 and then the defense catches an int and we make the refs take the points off the board by asking him to throw a bogus flag and he does. Not fair to that kid at all. Then we have another one of the kids that never gets a chance to run the ball and he almost scores so we are forced to kneel the ball on the 10yrd line. If we would have scored we would have to forfeit. No rule was broken but we would have been punished. What's wrong with this picture? And you tell me if we do score with that one kid that never runs the ball is it ok?

What is the rule? Where is this rule written? Where does it say if you have a 40+ point margin the team in the lead will be penalized?
 
Curious....

My point Marie! No one knows how the Ethics Committee was created, how many reps are on the committee, what are they investigating, what warrants an investigation, number of votes required to punish and what the parameters are for punishment. This Board is acting with no real authority. In my opinion, their punishments are not even worth the paper they are written on.

Why exactly is the Mercy Rule in place?  Whatever happened to just playing the game and teaching boys (or girls if they play the game which some do) that sometimes a huge loss is just that -- a loss.  Character is built when you teach kids how to lose gracefully.  Your idea that this league is about you as a coach, dad, mom or league President, or Board member is flawed.  No one cares what you do, don't do or how you perform.  The ultimate question is whether your child is improving, having fun and becoming a better man/woman because he can handle the losses with the wins.  If you as a coach, dad, mom, league President or Board member harps on these alleged atrocities so much so you seek to "punish" others . . . you are only teaching your kids to be complete failures, complainers and ultimate losers in life.  Your kids will be the ones with their hands out begging for favors b/c they are inadequate in every respect.  
 
I would imagine this rule was put in place based on a gentlemen's agreement or understanding that no coach would intentionally run up the score.  I have read the by-laws and "definition" of the "Mercy Rule" and no where does it allow for this board to meet out a punishment of any sort, let alone to tell a man he is put on a lifetime probation.  No where does it outline what any alleged punishment would be either -- it was left undefined b/c no one ever expected this type of result.    If you want to continue with these decisions, please know that the rules are so vague and lacking in definition that they do not call for the use of "evidence" (such as videos), let alone using video and then not letting the accused party to view it in his or her defense.  If you want to start holding "ethical" boards and meeting punishment, you better have some protocol and particularly defined violations in writing in addition to what is required to constitute a legitimate vote to punish a coach and/or vote off a Board member.    
 
This board needs to be a little more pensive in how they act in the future.  They are skirting on the brinks of a discrimination lawsuit.  One in race given the 2 coaches they put on probation are African American (a repeated pattern I regret) and now sexual.  This I am afraid is coming from a white mother who is tired of listening to all this bantering of pathetic men.  You seriously kicked off of the one women who is on this Board?  I have no idea what she did to warrant such action but, again, where do your by-laws allow for such action?  You guys are fooling yourselves if you think your "punishments" have any real consequence other then defaming and libeling certain individuals.  These people have no legal impetus to follow your punishment other than they are trying to be respectful to the league and the kids -- which this is all about and kudos to them for not fighting back.  Be careful what you say to disparage other individuals on this forum and elsewhere.  The internet has a strange way of coming back to bite you in the --- (anonymous or not).  Things that are said on these forums can be used in discovery and in litigation.  
 
Stand up and be real men and teach your boys to be proud losers or winners, no matter how the chips may fall and no matter how bad you think you have been cheated (truth or not).  You aren't teaching your kids squat if you helicopter and try to outdo their "failures" all the time.  Life lessons people -- get real.
 
 

My point Marie! No one knows how the Ethics Committee was created, how many reps are on the committee, what are they investigating, what warrants an investigation, number of votes required to punish and what the parameters are for punishment. This Board is acting with no real authority. In my opinion, their punishments are not even worth the paper they are written on.

My point Marie! No one knows how the Ethics Committee was created, how many reps are on the committee, what are they investigating, what warrants an investigation, number of votes required to punish and what the parameters are for punishment. This Board is acting with no real authority. In my opinion, their punishments are not even worth the paper they are written on.

I agree with most above.  As I have stated numerous times, the rules are not enforced as intended.  The rule regarding "running score up" is to prevent a team from INTENTIONALLY scoring as much as they can.  I think a violation would require some proof of the coaches intention before you could punish him.  The rules do not tell you to try and not score.  If that is what the league wants (agree or not) than the rules should indicate such.  Once you have pulled your starters, 2-3rd stringers should be allowed to run plays they that have learned instead of having to run the ball in the middle of the field.  A coach should not have to tell his kids to run out of bounds etc. as an STJFL rep told one of his coaches when he was faced with that situation. 
 
In reviewing a perceived violation, the head coach of the team should be contacted and told why he is being reviewed and given an opportunity to state what he did or didn't do.  Currently, what I know that has happened this year, is the coach is told you are suspended for rule 10 violation and you can submit a letter offering evidence that you didn't break the rule that board can look at in considering whether or not to grant you an appeal.  Remember, the coach isn't even made aware of specifically what he is accused of doing.  Once your appeal is denied, you can get a copy of the investigative report to learn that the opposing coaches and refs were asked questions but not you.  The questions range from, did winning team pull starters as required, did they run ball up the middle, type of plays run etc.  Even though the referees side with the coach, and the opposing coach doesn't have a complaint on the coach It doesn't matter.
 
To accomplish what it seems the board wants, they should simply state that a team up by x points should intentionally not score.   If team scores then punish them.  I'm not saying I agree with this but it would solve the problem of teams being at the mercy of the board with no clear understanding of the rules. 
 
Other possible things to consider in changing rules: take out the rule regarding points allowed when determining playoffs.  Teams are encouraged to not let someone score in case of tie record in when determining playoff standings.  Possibly let trailing team have ball at 20 yard line until score is under mercy rule.  Possibly having a true mercy rule as in baseball and game is over.
 
It just needs to be clear what the rules are. I agree with Anklebiter that a committee possibly of others that aren't on stjfl board be included in determining a rules violation.  At least present the coach with what he is accused of and let him present his side.