165plus pitches?

[westend1]

[quote name="pickle" post="1191088" timestamp="1330744787"]
First things first, everyone needs to remember that a pitch count is only a number.  The majority of people seem to swear by the 100 pitch, pitch count.  Why?  Who decides 100 pitches is the limit?  Who can tell a pitcher when they get to 100 pitches they are done? What if the pitcher is in great shape and can go another 20-30 pitches?  What if the pitcher should have quit throwing at pitch number 63 or pitch number 81?  That number is under the magical 100 mark so surely no damage could be done to a player, right.  Of course not.  It depends on the player and every player is different.  Again, a pitch count is only a number so don't get so caught up with it. 

Next, some of the problem today is the overuse of pitchers.  Do I mean overuse in a game?  Maybe, but let's think about what these kids do today.  How many pitchers can you name that play high school ball then go to some type of pitching coach on the side?  I'm willing to bet that everyone that reads this knows at least 5 people that pitch for their high school and then go to some other type of training.  Is that extra training considered when we bring up the term, overuse or is that term only saved for the general high school coach?  I'm willing to bet the high school coach knows a little more about the use of their pitchers and their players since they see them everyday.  Where a pitching coach on the side, only sees the kid a few times a week.  I will give you an example of what I'm talking about.  Let's say Joe pitcher throws 90 pitches in a game on Tuesday.  He may come to practice on Wednesday and do little to no throwing then throw a light bullpen on Thursday and probably play some other position on Friday.  Sounds like the typical high school baseball pitcher, right?  What if Joe pitcher is going to pitching lessons on Wednesday and Thursday after practice?  What type of throwing does he do there?  Does his pitching coach know what he has done in high school baseball that week?  Does the pitching coach care what he has done in baseball that week?  I'm not saying it's impossible to do both but, in my opinion, it's very hard to do both without the risk of overuse!!!

To bighawk, be sure you know where your overuse came from before you start blaming your surgery on something that happened when you were a freshman.
[/quote]

165![size=24pt][/size]

[NDOMAKONG]

165 for a playoff spot, or for game 3 of a playoff series, or a state championship... those "MAY" be up for discussion if the kid was still strong.  165 in an early season non-district bullstuff tune-up, is IGNORANCE of the game.  That's just plain and simple, there should be much more to discuss here.  And, I would also point out that most pitching instruction during the week has existing pitches off a mound considered in their training program.  Throwing from flat ground between starts is needed and is in no way comparable to 165 reps off a mound. 

[UTfanatic]

To give an exact number for TOO many is not accurate....

Many things need to be considered.  Any by-stander could say that is too much but anyone who knows pitching knows a number is not the measure.  Before stepping on the mound, a pitcher warms up.  Are you counting those pitches too?  Not everyone warms up with the same number of pitches before/during game.

Then look at conditioning, training and overall physical strength/ability/agility.  Look at the care the athlete receives after pitching.  Those things are key.  A number is not the key.  Every pitcher is made different.

Baseball is all about numbers.  This is just not one of them.

[thedogs1987]

yep

[DTH]

I am so tired of hearing these whiney baby stories that say, "oh my career was ruined because I was overworked. Pitch counts are so invaluable". What crap!!  The arm was made to be used.  Nolan Ryan and Bob Gibson threw 150 pitch games quite often and did not have 5 days rest between starts. Pitch counts can be and are so overrated. When you start the season you should work up your stamina. It is a process. It's just like this summer league and lesson crap. Every sports orthopedic states that pitchers should have a minimum of 3 months rest per year. How many kids and their parents are adhering to that. Threads like these are garbage because all they are meant to do is provoke people. I hope I did my job.

[EAGLE07]

I thought another poster had accurately ended this discussion.
You ain't throwing could if you throw 165 pitches....simple really.
165 in February, meaningless game, cool weather, etc. is inexcusable.
To quote Westend...."165 ! "

[Ty Cobb]

So, some of you are saying that it's OK to throw 165 pitches as long as it's late in the season and the game has some meaning to it?  What's the difference in early or late season if the pitcher is in proper shape?  Why does it matter if the game has meaning to it?  If you are truly concerned with the player, it won't matter when the game is played or if it has meaning or not!!!  Like others have said on this thread, most of you are caught up with the number of pitches instead of the quality of pitches.  PITCH COUNTS are a guide.  Not something written in stone.

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="Ty Cobb" post="1192477" timestamp="1330967688"]
So, some of you are saying that it's OK to throw 165 pitches as long as it's late in the season and the game has some meaning to it?  What's the difference in early or late season if the pitcher is in proper shape?  Why does it matter if the game has meaning to it?  If you are truly concerned with the player, it won't matter when the game is played or if it has meaning or not!!!  Like others have said on this thread, most of you are caught up with the number of pitches instead of the quality of pitches.  PITCH COUNTS are a guide.  Not something written in stone.
[/quote]

I'm saying 165 is wrong for a variety of reasons....health at the top. I stand by my opinion that you ain't throwing well if you throw 165 pitches over 7 innings...gonna be a long season if you do not have someone else to throw.

[thedogs1987]

I wonder how many posters on this topic Either....

pitched or have kids who pitch?

Just a thought 8)

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="thedogs1987" post="1193556" timestamp="1331090004"]
I wonder how many posters on this topic Either....

pitched or have kids who pitch?

Just a thought 8)
[/quote]

Good question...

[lefty3162]

Mine pitched and I am pretty sure he would have never thrown that many in a game.The coach would have  changed pitchers way before then so my son could ride in the ambulance with me to see if I was gonna survive My stress induced heart attack.

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="lefty3162" post="1193562" timestamp="1331090499"]
Mine pitched and I am pretty sure he would have never thrown that many in a game.The coach would have  changed pitchers way before then so my son could ride in the ambulance with me to see if I was gonna survive My stress induced heart attack.
[/quote]

LOL...No doubt, I feel you.

[Guest UHCoog14]

http://www.mikereinold.com/2012/02/the-real-reason-why-there-are-so-many-youth-pitching-injuries.html


Mike Reinold:
Current Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at Massachusetts General Hospital, Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Division of Sports Medicine

Rehabilitation Coordinator / Assistant Athletic Trainer at Boston Red Sox

Past Facility Director / Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at Champion Sports Medicine

Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at HealthSouth

Education:
MGH Institute of Health Professions
Northeastern University

[thedogs1987]

[url][/url]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/sports/baseball/debate-grows-over-how-to-protect-young-pitching-arms.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

[PhatMack19]

[quote name="GCMPats" post="1193731" timestamp="1331141181"]
http://www.mikereinold.com/2012/02/the-real-reason-why-there-are-so-many-youth-pitching-injuries.html


Mike Reinold:
Current Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at Massachusetts General Hospital, Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Division of Sports Medicine

Rehabilitation Coordinator / Assistant Athletic Trainer at Boston Red Sox

Past Facility Director / Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at Champion Sports Medicine

Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at HealthSouth

Education:
MGH Institute of Health Professions
Northeastern University
[/quote]

A lot of this has to do with select baseball.  When most of us grew up, we play Little League with maybe 12 league games a year plus a few allstar games.  So kids maybe played 15-20 games a year then on to football, basketball, or whatever other sport we were playing in the offseason.  Now kids specialize in baseball at a young age, playing select year round with some teams playing over 100 games a year. 

That brings up the great Select baseball debate.  Do you make your son sit out some tournaments and risk him getting passed up by others or let him play year round and risk having Tommy John by the time he is 16?

[Numberoneonly]

[quote name="PhatMack19" post="1196601" timestamp="1331650529"]
[quote author=GCMPats link=topic=96866.msg1193731#msg1193731 date=1331141181]
http://www.mikereinold.com/2012/02/the-real-reason-why-there-are-so-many-youth-pitching-injuries.html
Finally....hit the nail on the head.

Mike Reinold:
Current Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at Massachusetts General Hospital, Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Division of Sports Medicine

Rehabilitation Coordinator / Assistant Athletic Trainer at Boston Red Sox

Past Facility Director / Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at Champion Sports Medicine

Coordinator of Rehabilitation Research & Education at HealthSouth

Education:
MGH Institute of Health Professions
Northeastern University
[/quote]

A lot of this has to do with select baseball.  When most of us grew up, we play Little League with maybe 12 league games a year plus a few allstar games.  So kids maybe played 15-20 games a year then on to football, basketball, or whatever other sport we were playing in the offseason.  Now kids specialize in baseball at a young age, playing select year round with some teams playing over 100 games a year. 

That brings up the great Select baseball debate.  Do you make your son sit out some tournaments and risk him getting passed up by others or let him play year round and risk having Tommy John by the time he is 16?
[/quote]

[thedogs1987]

The key to protecting the pitchers is having [b]an OFF Season.[/b]  Most kids, even who play select, don't overthrow in one season.  It seems to be the pitchers who never take a season off.  Also, those kids who pitch year round, whether at lessons or just with dad, or pitch through fall ball/tournaments.  I know this is not popular with leagues/select who run Fall leagues.  Not saying to end this, but parents need to realize if your kid pitches, take either fall / spring OFF from pitching. 

I have seen excellent pitchers who should still be pitching who pitched year round and blew their arms out at too early of age.

Rest that arm!!!  Most people overlook this. 

[PnutZnKrakerjakS]

If the coach leaves him in past 90 it's abuse.  If the kid hasn't made a showing by 90 he needs to be replaced.  If the parent doesn't stop it, then they have no right to complain.  $$'s in surgeons pockets . . . ruined dreams.  The medical centers are full of promising baseball prospects.

[Horns89]

HF coach left one of his pitchers in for 144 pitches the other night. The sad thing is this kid just came off IR for a arm issue. I can't believe parent didn't step in. I also hope the new AD that we get has a new baseball coach there in the very near future. One that don't have a kid that plays on the team would be nice also.

[EAGLE07]

Maybe some high school coaches and ADs, some not all, should be asked to sigh a contract stating that they will pay for your kid's college education if they abuse their arms...worked for me.  ;)

[thedogs1987]

[quote name="EAGLE07" post="1197130" timestamp="1331740043"]
Maybe some high school coaches and ADs, some not all, should be asked to sigh a contract stating that they will pay for your kid's college education if they abuse their arms...worked for me.  ;)
[/quote]

Heck, if the coaches/ad could just pay for my sons' food bill.  College is nothing compared to that! ;D

[Ty Cobb]

[quote name="PnutZnKrakerjakS" post="1196728" timestamp="1331664444"]
If the coach leaves him in past 90 it's abuse.  If the kid hasn't made a showing by 90 he needs to be replaced.  If the parent doesn't stop it, then they have no right to complain.  $$'s in surgeons pockets . . . ruined dreams.  The medical centers are full of promising baseball prospects.
[/quote]

Abuse?  How can this be considered abuse?