Good coaching- Is winning a state championship a large determinant?

[east texas bb]

Point perfectly made, great example.

[FanintheStands]

Yeah, but don't you guys see what you are doing?  You're listing English (who is great, BTW) and Sigler (another great one, no doubt) but what about the coaches 20 - 30 years ago that were their equals... but don't have titles.  Is anyone coming to their defense right now?

The sad thing is, that, even though English and Sigler are fantastic coaches, 20 to 30 years from now, they will not be listed among the Boutte's, Sutherlands, and Cotton Robinson's unless they get a State Title or two.

[stevenash]

Yes, we see what we are doing.  What we see is apparently slightly different from your viewpoint.  Our contention is that only a very few of those who coach get to experience a state title and yet there are a myriad of coaches who have the same capabilities as those who won a title.  I suspect if you hadnt grown up in Buna and you would be honest about it, you could not name a high school coach who had won a state title 30 years ago.  I am as fanatical about basketball as most anyone and I dont remember who won what 30 years ago.  As I stated earlier, if Sutherland, English, and Boutte all traded places, I am pretty confident that the results at each school would have been quite similar.  Same goes for Fred Williams and James Gamble.  Particularly in high school ( considerably less in college and even less in the NBA) being in the right place at the right time has quite a bit to do with ones ability to become successful because the playing field is less even than at the higher levels.

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="FanintheStands" post="1168393" timestamp="1327974790"]
Yeah, but don't you guys see what you are doing?  You're listing English (who is great, BTW) and Sigler (another great one, no doubt) but what about the coaches 20 - 30 years ago that were their equals... but don't have titles.  Is anyone coming to their defense right now?

The sad thing is, that, even though [b]English[/b] and Sigler are fantastic coaches, 20 to 30 years from now, they [b]will not be listed among[/b] the Boutte's, Sutherlands, and Cotton Robinson's unless they get a State Title or two.
[/quote]
I realize we are entertained talking about this, but from what I know of Coach English, he won't care if he is in the same sentence as those other coaches in 30 years. He is genuinely focused on the lessons his kids learn from playing the game of basketball. I think a big reason he has been so successful in Vidor and Nederland is because he is so sincere about bringing out the best in his kids in hopes that they translate their success over into the real world.
I doubt it happens, but if Coach E goes elsewhere to coach, I would seriously consider moving my family so that my son could play for him.

[east texas bb]

Everyone is forgotten eventually.  The Bible tells us this life is like a mist or vapor that comes and goes quickly. The importance of worth or value is different for each individual, most if not all of the coaches you listed (and overwhelmingly the majority of coaches) would more than likely tell you if asked, that they could care less if someone remembered them 20-30 years later, they would be concerned with what they did in each of their players lives to make them better players and better people, and how their famlies and their God views them. 
I go back to John Wooden and his book, "THEY CALL ME COACH", he was talking about one of his former coaches, Alonzo Stagg I believe, and people would ask coach Stagg if the team he was coaching that year was the best team he had ever coached, and he would reply, "I dont know, get back with me in 20 years and I can tell you".
We must also remember that we are viewed on many different levels, from lay people, to fans, to people who think they know the game but really dont, people who DO know the game, to our players, to other coaches, to our family, and ourselves, and to God.  I would rather be viewed highly by God, my family, players, and fellow coaches. JMO

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168421" timestamp="1327981718"]
Everyone is forgotten eventually.  The Bible tells us this life is like a mist or vapor that comes and goes quickly. The importance of worth or value is different for each individual, most if not all of the coaches you listed (and overwhelmingly the majority of coaches) would more than likely tell you if asked, that they could care less if someone remembered them 20-30 years later, they would be concerned with what they did in each of their players lives to make them better players and better people, and how their famlies and their God views them. 
I go back to John Wooden and his book, "THEY CALL ME COACH", he was talking about one of his former coaches, Alonzo Stagg I believe, and people would ask coach Stagg if the team he was coaching that year was the best team he had ever coached, and he would reply, "I dont know, get back with me in 20 years and I can tell you".
We must also remember that we are viewed on many different levels, from lay people, to fans, to people who think they know the game but really dont, people who DO know the game, to our players, to other coaches, to our family, and ourselves, and to God.  I would rather be viewed highly by God, my family, players, and fellow coaches. JMO
[/quote]

Great Post!

[Guest tigersvoice]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168421" timestamp="1327981718"]
Everyone is forgotten eventually.  The Bible tells us this life is like a mist or vapor that comes and goes quickly. The importance of worth or value is different for each individual, most if not all of the coaches you listed (and overwhelmingly the majority of coaches) would more than likely tell you if asked, that they could care less if someone remembered them 20-30 years later, they would be concerned with what they did in each of their players lives to make them better players and better people, and how their famlies and their God views them. 
I go back to John Wooden and his book, "THEY CALL ME COACH", he was talking about one of his former coaches, Alonzo Stagg I believe, and people would ask coach Stagg if the team he was coaching that year was the best team he had ever coached, and he would reply, "I dont know, get back with me in 20 years and I can tell you".
We must also remember that we are viewed on many different levels, from lay people, to fans, to people who think they know the game but really dont, people who DO know the game, to our players, to other coaches, to our family, and ourselves, and to God.  I would rather be viewed highly by God, my family, players, and fellow coaches. JMO
[/quote]
WOW!  This guy (girl?) is GOOD!

[Guest Ricthepic]

I suppose it's a sign of the times that " great " coaching is defined as winning a state championship. It is unfortunate that we allow ourselves to be defined by the number of wins a coach produces. The best coaches I have had the pleasure to meet often evaluated themselves by the lives they affected and the life lessons sport teaches. A championship of any kind is impressive, but so are the positives that our students take with them after the playing days are done.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Rock of Ages" post="1168458" timestamp="1328017592"]
I suppose it's a sign of the times that " great " coaching is defined as winning a state championship. It is unfortunate that we allow ourselves to be defined by the number of wins a coach produces. The best coaches I have had the pleasure to meet often evaluated themselves by the lives they affected and the life lessons sport teaches. A championship of any kind is impressive, but so are the positives that our students take with them after the playing days are done.
[/quote]

I salute you sir and easttexasbb as well.

[Dick Vitale]

What about me, nash? 8)....Thats ok...I know what kind of salute you would give me..the one finger kind!  ;D...which is why I will be in your parking spot TONIGHT at HJ!! ;D ;D

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168462" timestamp="1328018059"]
What about me, nash? 8)....Thats ok...I know what kind of salute you would give me..the one finger kind!  ;D...which is why I will be in your parking spot TONIGHT at HJ!! ;D ;D
[/quote]

I don't give the type of salutes that you infer I do.  I TRULY hope you are in my parking spot tonight.  It will make for a MOST interesting evening.

[mytwocents-28]

Okay i have a question for yall...

One hand you have a coach who doesn't have any state rings. Has one or maybe 2 appearances in the state tourney and doesn't have more than 10 district championships but he has one thing that people don't really look for. He saved atleast 10 kids from: going to jail, killing themselves, or ruining there lives.

On the other hand you have a coach who had 3 state rings, multiple state tourney appearances and multiple district championships but he has forgotten the most important thing to coaching. He has forgotten about the little man. You know him. The guy who shows up the practice early and stays late. The guy who doesn't have much basketball skill at all but works harder than anyone you know. And in that hunt for the state ring he drops the kid that noone likes. And misses the chance to help one kid just to get a state ring.

Now tell me fellas, which coach is better?

IMO the first coach blows the second out of the water because he knows what the term coach actually means.

[stevenash]

I have a feeling you are going to get a response that suggests one coach met both of the criteria you mentioned.

[mytwocents-28]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168614" timestamp="1328032578"]
I have a feeling you are going to get a response that suggests one coach met both of the criteria you mentioned.
[/quote]
I figured that. And i am by no means armed myself to get in a debate about boutte because i don't know much but what i do know is very very interesting.  8)

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="vp32" post="1168621" timestamp="1328032855"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168614#msg1168614 date=1328032578]
I have a feeling you are going to get a response that suggests one coach met both of the criteria you mentioned.
[/quote]
I figured that. And i am by no means armed myself to get in a debate about boutte because i don't know much but what i do know is very very interesting.  8)
[/quote]
Please..share what you "know"... ::)

[mytwocents-28]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168634" timestamp="1328033828"]
[quote author=vp32 link=topic=95117.msg1168621#msg1168621 date=1328032855]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168614#msg1168614 date=1328032578]
I have a feeling you are going to get a response that suggests one coach met both of the criteria you mentioned.
[/quote]
I figured that. And i am by no means armed myself to get in a debate about boutte because i don't know much but what i do know is very very interesting.  8)
[/quote]
Please..share what you "know"... ::)
[/quote]
Nah i'm good.  8)  ;)