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  1. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    Then your contention is that we do not understand why people believe the way we do?    I don't think it is that we don't understand, we don't recognize. Not as a fault, but as human nature. Let's assume you are absolutely 100% correct.  Lets further agree that we are going to make a more concerted effort to understand where others are "coming from".  How are we to demonstrate that new approach?   At the current state of this board, you can't do it here. Everyone is dug in like we are in the trenches of WWI. This thread is a great example. How many black posters on this board have stepped up to defend what I am saying, zero. This was their perfect opportunity. I believe that is because they don't like the fact that I stated that they need to acknowledge that race isn't always the factor. That removes their easy out, therefore, crickets. I am thinking that the first time a minority is killed by a  police officer( whether justified or not) it will be promoted as a cop looking for a reason to shoot/kill a black person.  Am I wrong in thinking/believing that? Agreed 100%. This is one of the reasons why I am so heartbroken at the state of our country. The media and sleazy politicians have created this and I am scared there is no turning back.
  2. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    I am saying that seeds of distrust began years ago in the black community because of their experience in this country. Nothing more, nothing less. When a kid grows up listening to grandpa tell stories about what happened to him as a kid and that same person listens to the news regarding a black killed in an incident with a cop, they might draw a different conclusion as to the cause than I might. As I’ve said multiple times, their conclusion may be right, it may be wrong. The point being that something has driven them to a different conclusion than me. If you want to continue the debate, go ahead and debate with yourself. I am tired of this round and round. I am moving on. I have made a very reasonable argument that we should try and understand why people believe the way they do and you obviously disagree with that.  Let’s see if your “you are wrong and I am right” attitude will forward the conversation any further with minorities regarding perceived injustices. 
  3. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    I doubt affirmative action got anyone in your family lynched. Affirmative action didn’t affect you and your ancestors for 200 years. Perception is reality and in the black community, there is a large number that see the police as oppressive. Why is that and how can we change that perception? You don’t seem to want to understand each other anymore than someone shouting grabum every time someone says something they don’t agree with. 
  4. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    I would like you to admit that historically, the black experience in America is different than the white experience. Whites weren’t enslaved or impacted by Jim Crow. These experiences of the past have left them with a different viewpoint on today’s events. I’m not saying that their view is wrong or right, I’m just saying that it is different. My original point was that minorities need to acknowledge that race isn’t always THE factor and whites need to acknowledge that their have been instances that have led minorities to feel the way they do. A little understanding by both sides can go a long way.  It’s not a I gotcha or right or wrong thing, it’s a make a better world thing. 
  5. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    I am now confused. I thought that I agreed with you that I don’t believe that there is any systemic racism taking place. I don’t think that I have argued to that. I did say that I believe there are bound to be cases where blacks may be treated differently. I also argued that I don’t believe many of those are due to race, rather more likely due to environmental factors. If I am not mistaken, you made he same argument. The rub seems to be that I believe that there are occasionally instances where a police officer abuses his authority and sometimes this happens to a minority(which you apparently agree with). I guess the controversy arises from the fact that I say both sides should try and understand the others perspective. Forgive me, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with trying to understand why someone feels the way they do. They may be right and they may be wrong, but at least you know why they feel the way they do. 
  6. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    I have never denied injustices happen to all races. That was not my original point. It seems that the argument was being made that there were not any legitimate cases of injustices against blacks because the statistics don’t show any significant differences in tick ting and arrest rates.  I was making the point that to deny that there are cases of injustice against blacks is naive. I also believe that blacks who claim everything is racial against them is naive. My point is that there are two perspectives in this and unless both side is willing to accept that they have different perspectives, you will never come to a sensible solution. You and others hear are debating with someone (me) who believes the same as you on this point on 99% of the issues. Find common ground, then see where the conversation leads.     
  7. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    No, I don’t believe you can eliminate all instances of injustice. Does that mean we shouldn’t try?
  8. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    @Englebert, this is exactly the reason that I left this board for so long. Everything has to be a confrontational. Why can't you admit that there are instances where black people get treated differently than white people by police? If you think it doesn't ever happen, you are naive. I don't believe it isn't as prevalent as some would make it out to be, but do believe that it occasionally happens.  It doesn't matter that the studies have shown that there isn't a different rate between the races. I'm not debating that. I do believe that is probably correct. I am saying that I do believe that there are certain cases where you get a bad apple cop that is racist or poorly performs his job. I believe statistics would back me up that there is a certain percentage of people who are by nature, racist. That would also include police, both white and black. If you read closely, you will see that the double standard that i am referring to is not race related, but related to appearances and where the officer is working. I would guess that an officer working in a crime ridden neighborhood would probably approach a traffic stop a bit different than he might in a relatively crime free area. I think that is just human nature. I also believe that if someone is perceived to be a "gang banger", he might handle that stop differently as well.  I think I just answered your driving while black question, You do bring up some valid points and this is why I said that both sides need to be open to dialogue in order to gain respect from the other side.  You keep talking about incarceration/ticketed/stopped rate. I think you are missing the mark. The statistics speak for themselves on that point. From what I have seen, there isn't the disparity that is argued by some. Our police do an overall fantastic job. My point has to do with the individual instances of injustice. If you are opposed to stopping those, then we can agree to disagree. 
  9. Bob Corker

    @stevenash, you know you can't ask for a direct response. That triggers them to automatically leave the discussion. It is easy to throw hate around, but tougher when you have to actually back up your statement with facts. 
  10. LA Times - Hollywood Double Standard

    With the influence of pop culture and its impact on society, you really should be concerned. If Hollywood is condoning and protecting this type of behavior, what impact will that have on young impressionable minds?  If you care about the country as your posts say, this should bother you. 
  11. NFL tells players to STAND

    I've been away from the board for a while and I see that nothing much has changed. I believe that it is your patriotic right to stand for the anthem. If I had a say, it would be written into law. But, we live in a free society where people have the freedom to choose what they wish to do. That freedom does not exempt them from the consequences of those actions. The NFL is paying the price of those consequences. And all for what? The protests originally began to point out injustices against blacks. I ask you this, what is the main point of conversation about now regarding the NFL? Is it about injustices? No, it is about kneeling for the anthem and how it has hurt the NFL's favorability ratings. The protests are a failure in my opinion. I will give you this analogy. How many people have switched sides to being a Donald Trump supporter since he got elected. Very, very few have become new supporters, His inflammatory talk doesn't bring people together, it divides. His supporters have dug their heels in and his detractors have dug theirs in. And nobody is any better for it. Now, take that same analogy and apply it to this protest. No patriotic American will likely support an argument that starts with such an offensive gesture. Both sides have now dug their heels in and neither side is willing to listen to the other. That is why this is a total failure. 
  12. Tobie, lets try an experiment

    I think that both sides of this argument have valid points and also faulty ones. One, I don't know what driving while black is like, so I have to try and understand your viewpoint. I would assume that sometimes there is some sort of double standard that takes place when you are black. I think that it would be foolish to assume otherwise. I think that the vast majority of officers aren't racist, but I do believe that sometimes, a black person will be treated differently than a white person. I feel like the conservatives on this board could gain a little respect from the other side if they would admit this. Two- the libs on this board need to ask why certain officers treat blacks differently? I don't necessarily believe it has anything to do with race at all most of the time. I believe that a lot of times, it is the neighborhood that they are working, or just the perception of the gang banger mentality. One has to admit that the gang banger mentality that is so pervasive in many minority communities puts a wall up between the police and the citizens. I also believe sometimes that they may profile the vehicle or the dress of the individual. Right or wrong, that is how i see it. I think that the libs on this board could gain a lot of respect from the right if they would admit that there may be other problems leading to this than just the easy fallback of racism. It may be racism sometime, but the vast majority of the time, it isn't. What I do believe that both sides can agree on is that any bad officers need to be gone. They are not above the law. If they abuse their power, they should be held to a higher standard and punished accordingly.  What both sides should also be able to agree upon is that most officers do an amazing job and deserve our utmost respect. Until both sides can admit this, there will be no progress on this front. 
  13. North korea tested another missle

    Sanctions are useless in a society that is used to doing without. Take Russia, for example. Those people take pride in being able to handle tough situations. The sanctions do not influence public opinion any at all. If anything, they have made Putin more popular. I don't know what to with NK. I think the solution lies with China. They are the only ones who can squash the regime without sucking us into a big war that we don't want or need. 
  14. Trump and job creation

    BG. This made me laugh. I don't know if it is the only jobs he is creating, but lawyers all across the country have been getting plenty of work during his time in office. 
  15. Can I LOL this?

    Like I said, I would have liked the department heads to have been from their field. But, there is no reason these people can't run the departments even though they aren't from the field. I wouldn't want someone who isn't a nurse/doctor helping me in the hospital, but wouldn't care if a businessman were running the hospital. Same goes for the heads of these departments.